What went wrong here?

[fifo]

I'm in the small blind. Two callers. I hold Ah As. Raise and still two callers.

Those two are not exactly tight players - they could hold anything. But since I'm a fish myself, I don't really have the self conscisness to call them "fish"

Flop comes 4c 7s 2d. I reason that I don't exactly hit my cards but likely will still have the highest pair on the table. Therefore I bet, one folds, one calls. Ok, seems I do have the best hand. So probably a pair out there. (Side question: what should I do if someone raises back? Assume a trip and fold?)

Turn shows 2s.

Now I have two pairs - only a trip can get me and then they might have raised on the flop? --> I bet, also to find out what I'm up against, the other guy raises and I call. The only hand I could loose against would be a trip at the moment and I wasn't sure if anyone would be willing to call a raise of the small blind with 77 preflop. But if he had 77, wouldn't he have bet on the flop? So I guess I'm still good.

River: 2h

Now _only_ quad 2 can kill me and I have him on trip 7 _at most_. Should I have known better? Anyway, with trip7 I have him beat and therefore bet. He raises again. Now, I pretty much know that he indeed has quad 2's but still - fold here where it's only one more call and his chances are so slim?

Indeed, the other guy shows up with Ac 2c...

So who was the idiot here - he calling a raise with A2s preflop or me not believing his quad 2's?
Contrary to common psychology I seem to remember only my losses.

[shun]

When the pot is big you end up having to call bets like that on the river because a small percentage of the time the guy is going to be a total nut case and not have a hand. Also, since you started with such a strong hand you fell into the trap of putting your opponent on exactly what beat you. I'd imagine if the guy was very passive he has a 2 very often there but he could also have just a single 7, and you're right on the river, you now have 77 beat. Anyway, don't bet the river, check-call it if you really think he has a 2. By betting into him, you don't give him a chance to bluff if he is bluffing.

[biggle10]

on the river, you now have 77 beat.

O RLY???

What limits? If your opponent is a typical low limit passive player the turn is foldable. Check-call the river.

[shun]

on the river, you now have 77 beat.

O RLY???

Wow, I guess 11am is too early for me to analyze limit poker.

That and fifo said he had 77 beat so I simply assumed he was correct.

<< Donkey

Anyway, sorry, 77722 beats 222AA except on Mondays and during select promotional periods.

[fifo]

Ok,

I was the idiot. Sorry.

As is clear from what's written above, I'm pretty new to this game. In order not to spam the forum needlessly, I'll keep all my screw up's in this one thread.

Here's one more. I realized after this and another session, that I'm pretty tame preflop but then get super aggressive. As can be seen from what follows. But on this one I do feel it was just bad luck, no?

GAME #433151178: 2c / 4c Limit (ok) - 2006-09-16 17:38:42
Table Brands Hatch

Seat 1: retraite ($0.41 in chips)
Seat 2: nickypoker ($1.43 in chips)
Seat 5: pretreltigha ($6.33 in chips)
Seat 6: jariti ($1.01 in chips)
Seat 7: Crasher5054 ($3.45 in chips)
Seat 8: LEDGEWOOD24 ($3.56 in chips)
Seat 9: sa6a ($5.45 in chips)
Seat 10: K99MGS ($2.05 in chips)

retraite: SB $0.01
nickypoker: BB $0.02
pretreltigha: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [Ah Ac]
pretreltigha: Raise $0.02
jariti: Fold
Crasher5054: Call $0.04
LEDGEWOOD24: Call $0.04
sa6a: Call $0.04
K99MGS: Fold
retraite: Call $0.03
nickypoker: Fold
*** FLOP *** [9d Ad 7s]
retraite: Bet $0.02
pretreltigha: Raise $0.04
Crasher5054: Fold
LEDGEWOOD24: Call $0.04
sa6a: Call $0.04
retraite: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [9d Ad 7s 2h]
retraite: Check
pretreltigha: Bet $0.04
LEDGEWOOD24: Call $0.04
sa6a: Call $0.04
retraite: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [9d Ad 7s 2h Qd]
retraite: Check
pretreltigha: Check
LEDGEWOOD24: Bet $0.04
sa6a: Call $0.04
retraite: Fold
pretreltigha: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pretreltigha: shows (mucked) [Ah Ac] (Three of a kind)
LEDGEWOOD24: shows [5d Kd] (Flush)
sa6a: shows (mucked) [As 6s] (Pair)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.66 Rake $0
LEDGEWOOD24: wins $0.66

I mean, if I can't even get aggressive if I hit trips with top pair, when _can_ I get aggressive...

[caffiend]

Flop comes 4c 7s 2d. I reason that I don't exactly hit my cards but likely will still have the highest pair on the table. Therefore I bet, one folds, one calls. Ok, seems I do have the best hand. So probably a pair out there. (Side question: what should I do if someone raises back? Assume a trip and fold?)

Hell no. You should reraise and smoke whoever it is. Techinically, two pair is the most likely thing ahead of you, not a set. Even against two pair you have a decent chance of winning a showdown by making aces up when the board pairs without giving them a full house. You just aren't getting a better flop to AA than that one, and if you eat it occasionally to 47/72/42/22/77/44 then c'est la vie. You could just as easily be against a smaller overpair, like TT. (In fact, that or two overcards is what you'll usually find. Even total fish are unlikely to be playing garbage that gets a lot of help with that flop)

I think what really went wrong here is you didn't expect anything to go wrong. Aces don't win 100% of the time, you're going to get stuffed around 30% of the time. Overall though, they win much more money than they lose.

Two things that shouldn't surprise you are people calling your preflop raise. A raise by the blind is almost always called in limit, because your odds are improved over the previous call. Two limpers, then your raise, that's better than 4:1 for the first guy to call, better than 5:1 for the next. They can call with any two cards profitably.

The other thing is that very few people are betting a set of sevens on such a safe flop. You're representing a big pair or AK, so they're going to wait until the bets double on the turn to raise you. You were too quick to put him off of big hands, and not quick enough to put him on trash like K7s.

On the turn you can be fairly sure he has a deuce, but calling isn't terrible. You have two outs if he has a single deuce. On top of that a substantial number of both idiots and decent players will play two pair or an ace the same way, and you're ahead of both of those.

You should definately have check/called the river though. You're never winning with a bet there, and you're always getting raised by better hands.

[fifo]

I think what really went wrong here is you didn't expect anything to go wrong. Aces don't win 100% of the time, you're going to get stuffed around 30% of the time. Overall though, they win much more money than they lose.

As a matter of fact, in the two or four sessions I've played so far, I have not won a single pot with AA. I seem to do a lot better with stuff like KK or AKo.

Ok, to sum this up:

1.) I played correctly up to the turn.
2.) Someone calling a preflop raise isn't automatically having something good, as a matter of fact, he can hold just about anything only slightly reasonable. (And I guess, A2s is halfways reasonable - even though I wouldn't even call with that. But that might be my exact problem... )
3.) Not raising the flop is perfectly reasonable with trips here. The flop helped them a lot more than me and they'll wait until the betting's getting big.
4.) On the turn, I should probably assume that he holds trips, either 777 or the 22's he just started to bet. Therfore folding seems a reasonable choice, but at most, I check/call from now on to keep it cheap.


btw.: thanks for your help. It's greatly appreciated. Again, as I said in that other thread, mostly for showing me of what all I haven't thought about while playing that hand.

And what about that hand just above your last post?

[caffiend]

As is clear from what's written above, I'm pretty new to this game. In order not to spam the forum needlessly, I'll keep all my screw up's in this one thread.

Here's one more. I realized after this and another session, that I'm pretty tame preflop but then get super aggressive. As can be seen from what follows. But on this one I do feel it was just bad luck, no?

I don't know, I tend to do better with one subject per thread. I wouldn't worry about clutter too much, the vast majority of members are no-limit players. (If you hadn't noticed yet)

It's good and bad luck. You're lucky LEDGEWOOD24's an idiot, but unlucky he made a hand. But, against bad players shit's going to happen. I'd probably have done the same thing you did.

The flop is tough, because the odds of completing a flush before the river are 1.9:1. With retraite and you committed to the pot, it's correct for a flush draw to stay in. In fact, it's correct for them to put in as many chips as possible. Raising is still your best bet, because it eliminates hangers on and gets the most chips in with the best hand. That's what you want against idiots. It isn't bad against great players, either, because it gives you some deception when the board pairs and they hit a flush. They may pay you off, figuring you for two pair rather than a full house.

The turn's a train wreck, but there's nothing you can do. You just aren't getting anyone to fold, period. Your best option is just what you did, bet and pray the flush doesn't come in.

The river's the only debateable street, and there's no debate at all here. In general, it's a bad idea to overcall on the end. Your effective odds are reduced by everyone who's called in front of you. However, this is a giant pot and you have a solid hand. I would look them up too, even though you're virtually always seeing a flush. There are just too many morons who will play something like AQ the way he played his flush draw.

[fifo]

I wouldn't worry about clutter too much, the vast majority of members are no-limit players. (If you hadn't noticed yet)

It's good and bad luck. You're lucky LEDGEWOOD24's an idiot, but unlucky he made a hand. But, against bad players shit's going to happen. I'd probably have done the same thing you did.

Yeah. And there seems to be a good reason to it as you can assess your opponents hand more accurately if you can bet to your own liking. If you bet 4x the pot in early position, people probably feel more impressed than if you just raise once.

And, no, it's only bad luck. Ledge may be an idiot, but I am too and can't really make profit off this patzer

[caffiend]

More for entertainment value than anything else, here's an example of an AA hand played badly by everyone in it. It illustrates some of the crazy shit you see in loose games.

***** Pacific Hand History for Game 51032052 *****
$1/$2 Limit Hold'em - *** 09 16 10:49:06 2006
Table Burgundy Ale (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 10: Motze ( $49.69 )
Seat 1: jckisco ( $278.42 )
Seat 2: djexcell ( $65.58 )
Seat 3: Kynos ( $115.69 )
Seat 4: andy465 ( $151.19 )
Seat 5: ronka ( $34.84 )
Seat 6: sw010 ( $18.5 )
Seat 7: Elleron ( $72.97 )
Seat 8: Sughrue ( $40 )
Seat 9: pokefast ( $36.99 )
andy465 posts small blind [$0.5].
ronka posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Elleron [ :Ac: ]
sw010 calls [$1].
Elleron raises [$2]. <- I want to limit the field ...
Sughrue folds.
pokefast calls [$2].
Motze calls [$2].
jckisco folds.
djexcell folds.
Kynos calls [$2].
andy465 folds.
ronka folds.
sw010 calls [$1]. <- ... to less than five players. Sigh.
** Dealing Flop ** [ :9c::Th: ] <- This flop sucks ass for me.
sw010 checks.
Elleron bets [$1]. <- But I have to bet, I need to at least find out where I am. J8 exactly is unlikely too, but I won't win without getting some draws to fold.
pokefast raises [$2]. <- Yes, this is the best thing that can happen to me. This guy raises incorrectly often, and I'm 100% sure I'm ahead of him. Now that we'll be heads-up I'm in great shape.
Motze calls [$2].
Kynos calls [$2]. <- Or would be in great shape if these two morans hadn't called.
sw010 folds.
Elleron calls [$1]. <- Now I'm probably way behind the combined draws of three opponents. Putting more money in the pot won't eliminate anyone, so I'll wait and see what happens.
** Dealing Turn ** [ ] <- This is a good card for me, but four handed I still need to suspect a better hand than mine.
Elleron checks. <- I opt to check here because I want to see if anyone was slow-playing a straight, or if someone will bet with a set. Pokefast can't eliminate a better hand than mine by raising me, so my only hope is I get to check-raise someone in the back. In the worst case I end up calling, playing a good hand in a big pot.
pokefast bets [$2].
Motze calls [$2].
Kynos calls [$2].
Elleron calls [$2].
** Dealing River ** [ ] <- This is terrible for me, because it completes the straight draw.
Elleron checks.
pokefast bets [$2].
Motze calls [$2].
Kynos calls [$2].
Elleron calls [$2]. <- Now this is obviously stupid. With three people in front of me and one pair I must have the worst hand. On the other hand, pokefast is sort of dumb and probably doesn't have the straight. Kynos also doesn't have it, or he'd have raised to get another bet from Motze and pokefast rather than just one more from me. That would mean that if anyone has a straight, it's Motze. I have a hard time giving anyone two pair or trips, or they'd have raised sometime during the hand. So, the only thing I'm deeply worried about it Motze's possible straight. But, he's calling pokefast and not overcalling. Because pokefast is an idiot occasionally, Motze needen't have much to call him. There's $33.50 in the pot so I'm getting 15:1 or so. I only need to win the showdown about 6.5% of the time at that price, and I'm ahead of the dangerous player (Motze in this hand) easily that often. So it's crying call time.
** Summary **
pokefast shows [ 10d Jd ].
Motze shows [ Kh As ].
Kynos mucks.
Elleron shows [ Ah Ac ].
Elleron collected [$34.25].

Miracle of miracles, I was right. pokefast had a piece of the flop and made a bad raise, Motze had enough to beat him on the river, and Kynos wiffed. The point is, you can't always assume you're beat, even if you do need to be cautious at times. To win at loose tables you often need to drag gigantic pots. I played 171 minutes at this table, and lost $8. That's mainly because I won 8 of 179 hands!

The other 171 hands I either had garbage, took a bad beat, or messed up. But all of those will happen at loose tables. You won't be playing garbage because it takes a solid hand to win multi-way pots. You'll take nothing but bad beats, because you'll most often have the best hand. And you will mess up, because it's tough not to against bad players. In the long run though, you'll show a profit as you make your draws and get paid off with the best hand.

I remember one month when I put up a real stinker, and couldn't figure out why. It turns out that going back in Poker Tracker one of my problems was that I was something like 0 for 32 on flush draws! That was really crimping my winrate, but it evened out eventually.

[caffiend]

And, no, it's only bad luck. Ledge may be an idiot, but I am too and can't really make profit off this patzer

It can take a while to profit in loose games. I tend to break even for long stretches and then mop up, but if you're not quite able to get full value out of marginal hands and win small pots then you'll lose slowly for long stretches and then shoot up. In the long run you can't help but win if people will play K5s against your AA.

It can be frustrating though, especially when things aren't going your way. Believe me, everyone knows that feeling.

[snickers99]

I don't know, I tend to do better with one subject per thread. I wouldn't worry about clutter too much, the vast majority of members are no-limit players. (If you hadn't noticed yet)

I agree. One hand per thread is better. As Biggle once said to me, don't worry...you won't fill up the Internet (or something like that!). Plus, the limit section of the forum needs more threads. Welcome to the forum and don't be afraid to ask any question, even if you think it's the stupidest one in the world.

[mervhage]

I don't mean to thread hijack, so let me comment on the OP. Shit happesn with AA, curse, kick the wall, blame the poker gods for your bad luck. Then, shake it off and keep playing.

Now, Caff, I would say that TJ had a lot of outs on that flop, do you think his flop raise was bad? I thought I'd play it the same. Can you elaborate on why you thought he played incorrectly?

[caffiend]

Now, Caff, I would say that TJ had a lot of outs on that flop, do you think his flop raise was bad? I thought I'd play it the same. Can you elaborate on why you thought he played incorrectly?

The pot is opened early for a limp, and raised by me (which is is big mistake). That means a pair of tens is unlikely to be the best hand. With that many players in the pot he won't be able to cut off a flush draw or better straight draw with his raise either.

He does have a lot of outs, he's about 33% to win among the known hands. However, all of his outs are to hands that would've won the entire pot anyway. Given that he likely needs to improve on his hand to win, and any improvement is likely to be a monster there's no reason to raise and isolate himself against a better hand. (Contrary to other situations, where you need to improve to win but your improvement isn't going to be a big winner.)

[shun]

1.) I played correctly up to the turn.

4.) On the turn, I should probably assume that he holds trips, either 777 or the 22's he just started to bet. Therfore folding seems a reasonable choice, but at most, I check/call from now on to keep it cheap.

Correct, you should bet the turn and not fear trips simply because the board pairs, but when you get raised on the turn you should probablyslow down and check-call the river. In reality the river deuce should feel like a good card for you and I can understand betting the river but in this situation it doesn't work out. However you should almost never fold here because the chances of the villain holding a 7 or 5 for simply a boat (which surely looks good) is quite appreciable

In the second hand, you pretty much played it perfectly but got unlucky. The only marginal play that might be better is to call the flop and hope retraite bets the turn so you can raise, but this is a very complicated and advanced play that frequently won't work because not too many people are willing to follow through on the turn when 4 people call. If you were to make this play it would give them less odds to call (the flush draw only has 7 outs against you rather than 9 as the 7d and 2d make you a full house), but they would probably still call. This kind of play is talked about in Small Stakes Hold'em


On caffiend's hand,

I think if Villain with JT had known you had AA he would of checked on the turn which would of looked brilliant when the two people behind him with nothing check and he gains a free card.

I think there's a case for either repopping it on the flop or opening the turn and hoping pokefast raises. A raise by pokefast on the turn will give inside straight draws bad odds to call and if people fold will increase your percentage of winning the pot. If they call anyway they are getting bad odds and making a mistake.

T97 with a flush draw is a bad flop but you're not always going to be up against J8, occasionally someone might have AT, KT, or even be raising it up with the flush draw. But you do have the Ace of hearts so if someone makes their flush you will have a nut redraw. Therefore, the flop isn't as scary as say, T97 with all of a suit you don't have. Then you're in trouble.