What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
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What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
by beezee » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:43 pm
Rode_Dog
What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« on: Jul 5th, 2005, 5:26pm »
I know of several players here that play 6max tables. Knowing the folks at ths site, I'm sure they see 6max as having a greater +EV than full tables.
I'll take a guess at the reasons and maybe someone can fill in the blanks.
Although the blinds come around more often, so does LP. Being in position more often is a Good Thing. VP$IP rises, but starting hands requirement stay the same?
With less players and less cards out, marginal hands have a greater value. Out playing the opposition post flop should pay off well.
Fish should be easier to isolate with less players. It's a lot easier to beat 1 or 2 fish in a pot than it is to beat the 4 or 6 you'll see in full table. Down side, starting pot size may be smaller?
I'm just guessing here, what did I miss or get wrong?
« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2005, 5:27pm by Rode_Dog »
BigDil511
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #1 on: Jul 5th, 2005, 6:45pm »
on Jul 5th, 2005, 5:26pm, Rode_Dog wrote:
Outplaying the opposition post flop should pay off well.
This is where I make the majority of my money at the 25NL 6max tables, I never play the full ring games, 6max is +EVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV.
goofyballer
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #2 on: Jul 5th, 2005, 8:56pm »
I'm actually curious about this, I play full tables mostly because I'm not sure how to adjust to 6-max when I'm used to tight strategy. How do you make the adjustments to loosen up for shorthanded play without becoming too loose?
Rode_Dog
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #3 on: Jul 5th, 2005, 10:46pm »
I have the exact same concern.
I would think position/starting hands would be the same. I think post flop would be the big difference. My guess is that you need to loosen up a fair bit. Hands that might be marginal or just good would have a substantially greater chance to be the best hand.
I'm not going near the 6max until I'm no longer guessing Smiley
heids
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #4 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 7:22am »
Position is still very important, especially since the game is much more aggressive than the traditional full table game. Since hand values go up due to less opponents, more hands are playable and more hands should be raised. Big card starting hands increase in value and drawing starting hands decrease in value. Aggression is key at the 6max table. The aggressor often controls the hand and takes down the pot. Passive players get eaten alive at these tables. It's a very different style of play, but can be very profitable if played correctly. Since the game is much more aggressive, variance will be greater - but that's a good thing for a winning player.
Alanpsych
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #5 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 9:25am »
We discuss this in Miami's thread a little
http://www.tightpoker.com/cgi-bin/yabb/ ... 1120544841
Basically, you have people who overcompensate for the shorthanded situation, and can be taken for a lot of money, along with people who play like it's a full table (too passive), resulting in a very winnable scenario.
MJ
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #6 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 11:25am »
6-handed is +EV because you're no longer constrained to worrying as much about early position situations and showing down with the best hand when you see flops.
The key with short-handed is to actually see more hands and outplay your opponents post flop. Coming in with a raise is very standard in short-handed play and you should be trying to isolate and get heads-up quite often. Picking on the tight players who don't know how to play short-handed is key as well, as those guys will just fold their way into oblivion waiting for full-table premium hands.
The aggression isn't quite the heads-up level, where you're making re-steals with junk, but it definitely becomes a force to be reckoned with. The only real way to learn short-handed is to pretty jump in and start playing it. All 'marginal' hands in full ring games become playable in 6-handed.
One big thing is to try and not play 'potential' hands nearly as much as full games, because your chances for getting the odds to draw in short-handed are much worse. Drawing to the nuts is not the way to go in short-handed. Betting out your pairs is.
scottie_g.
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #7 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 1:14pm »
Short handed NL cash games are all about top pair/top kicker.
Alanpsych
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #8 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 1:54pm »
on Jul 6th, 2005, 11:25am, MJ wrote:
One big thing is to try and not play 'potential' hands nearly as much as full games, because your chances for getting the odds to draw in short-handed are much worse. Drawing to the nuts is not the way to go in short-handed. Betting out your pairs is.
That's what I noticed. Big cards become more valuable (because they make tp more often) and suited connectors are less valuable, just like in heads up. You will occasionally win hands with A high even.
Miamipuck
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #9 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 6:04pm »
There are several advantages that I see for the 6 max tables.
1.) Less players mean it is easier to pick up on your opponents tendencies. For instance I 3 table. If I play on the full ring I have to get to know the tendencies of 27 people sometimes less. With the 6 max it is only 15.
2.) One or two fish do not make a significant difference on full ring, but if you have 2 fish on a 6 max oh man is it on. No need to do the math there.
3.) There are an endless parade of maniacs. This can be both good and bad. (70-75% good). For instance I put a post of the worst player I have seen at Party. I took him for 39.5. However the very next day I played a guy with a similar stat line as him and guess what? I got absolutely mauled.
I lost $25 AA to 7-4 os.
I lost A-6 to 6-10. Went all in on this flop A-5-6. Villain called. Turn was a 10. Then the river was a 10. I lost over $38 bucks to the fish.
I lost $25 A-K suited to 3-2. It was a tilt play. I knew the guy would not fold and yet I pushed he called with bottom pair a 3.
I lost 88 bucks to the same player. His VPIP was over 88% his PFR was 50%. I would do the same exact things over again. He outdrew me 2 out of the 3 times. That is variance for you.
4.) The average VPIP most tables is over 50% which is completely riiculous. That takes all the players(except mine) VPIP as an average............ Huh
One thing I would say is this. I see no need to adjust my strategy significantly. Meaning if you play a tight aggresive game 10-20 VPIP, a PFR of 5+ and an aggro rating of 3+ then you should be fine three tabling. One thing is a must........ you must be aggressive. If you are passive forget it. Cute play gets killed. So even though I do not play a lot of flops I am one mean aggressive bastard when I do. Basically push your little edges to the max, you will be rewarded.
I think they are more exciting. I think the full tables are completely gay not that there is anything wrong with that.
Feel free to ask any questions.
« Last Edit: Jul 6th, 2005, 6:08pm by Miamipuck »
Rode_Dog
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #10 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 6:23pm »
Sklansky, in SSHE, says the ideal is not Tight Agressive, but Tight Attacking. One should attack weak hands, weak draws and, IMO weak players.
His book was for small stakes limit, but the idea applies to full table NL and it sounds like an even better fit to 6max.
Miamipuck
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #11 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 7:57pm »
on Jul 6th, 2005, 6:23pm, Rode_Dog wrote:
Sklansky, in SSHE, says the ideal is not Tight Agressive, but Tight Attacking. One should attack weak hands, weak draws and, IMO weak players.
His book was for small stakes limit, but the idea applies to full table NL and it sounds like an even better fit to 6max.
Not to be a wise ass, but please explain the fucking difference between the two?
I do this sometimes to the good and sometimes to the bad. Sometimes on those six tables the really bad loose players suckout hands like clockwork it really is amazing.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2005, 7:59pm by Miamipuck »
Rode_Dog
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #12 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 7:18am »
I think the difference is in the level of agression. A player with a PFA of 1.1 can easily be TA. A similar player with a PFA of 3.5 is clearly attacking more often. While both may be profifable long term, the attacking player should be more successful against loose players and weak players. At least this is what I too Sklansky to mean.
Miamipuck
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #13 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 3:47pm »
on Jul 8th, 2005, 7:18am, Rode_Dog wrote:
I think the difference is in the level of agression. A player with a PFA of 1.1 can easily be TA. A similar player with a PFA of 3.5 is clearly attacking more often. While both may be profifable long term, the attacking player should be more successful against loose players and weak players. At least this is what I too Sklansky to mean.
I set my PT whenever a player falls below 2 PFA to be listed as passive. So I would not count that player as being tight aggessive.
Right now my stats list me as a TA/A. The biggest thing I see is that some of the players are so damn loose it is not funny.
What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« on: Jul 5th, 2005, 5:26pm »
I know of several players here that play 6max tables. Knowing the folks at ths site, I'm sure they see 6max as having a greater +EV than full tables.
I'll take a guess at the reasons and maybe someone can fill in the blanks.
Although the blinds come around more often, so does LP. Being in position more often is a Good Thing. VP$IP rises, but starting hands requirement stay the same?
With less players and less cards out, marginal hands have a greater value. Out playing the opposition post flop should pay off well.
Fish should be easier to isolate with less players. It's a lot easier to beat 1 or 2 fish in a pot than it is to beat the 4 or 6 you'll see in full table. Down side, starting pot size may be smaller?
I'm just guessing here, what did I miss or get wrong?
« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2005, 5:27pm by Rode_Dog »
BigDil511
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #1 on: Jul 5th, 2005, 6:45pm »
on Jul 5th, 2005, 5:26pm, Rode_Dog wrote:
Outplaying the opposition post flop should pay off well.
This is where I make the majority of my money at the 25NL 6max tables, I never play the full ring games, 6max is +EVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV.
goofyballer
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #2 on: Jul 5th, 2005, 8:56pm »
I'm actually curious about this, I play full tables mostly because I'm not sure how to adjust to 6-max when I'm used to tight strategy. How do you make the adjustments to loosen up for shorthanded play without becoming too loose?
Rode_Dog
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #3 on: Jul 5th, 2005, 10:46pm »
I have the exact same concern.
I would think position/starting hands would be the same. I think post flop would be the big difference. My guess is that you need to loosen up a fair bit. Hands that might be marginal or just good would have a substantially greater chance to be the best hand.
I'm not going near the 6max until I'm no longer guessing Smiley
heids
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #4 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 7:22am »
Position is still very important, especially since the game is much more aggressive than the traditional full table game. Since hand values go up due to less opponents, more hands are playable and more hands should be raised. Big card starting hands increase in value and drawing starting hands decrease in value. Aggression is key at the 6max table. The aggressor often controls the hand and takes down the pot. Passive players get eaten alive at these tables. It's a very different style of play, but can be very profitable if played correctly. Since the game is much more aggressive, variance will be greater - but that's a good thing for a winning player.
Alanpsych
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #5 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 9:25am »
We discuss this in Miami's thread a little
http://www.tightpoker.com/cgi-bin/yabb/ ... 1120544841
Basically, you have people who overcompensate for the shorthanded situation, and can be taken for a lot of money, along with people who play like it's a full table (too passive), resulting in a very winnable scenario.
MJ
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #6 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 11:25am »
6-handed is +EV because you're no longer constrained to worrying as much about early position situations and showing down with the best hand when you see flops.
The key with short-handed is to actually see more hands and outplay your opponents post flop. Coming in with a raise is very standard in short-handed play and you should be trying to isolate and get heads-up quite often. Picking on the tight players who don't know how to play short-handed is key as well, as those guys will just fold their way into oblivion waiting for full-table premium hands.
The aggression isn't quite the heads-up level, where you're making re-steals with junk, but it definitely becomes a force to be reckoned with. The only real way to learn short-handed is to pretty jump in and start playing it. All 'marginal' hands in full ring games become playable in 6-handed.
One big thing is to try and not play 'potential' hands nearly as much as full games, because your chances for getting the odds to draw in short-handed are much worse. Drawing to the nuts is not the way to go in short-handed. Betting out your pairs is.
scottie_g.
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #7 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 1:14pm »
Short handed NL cash games are all about top pair/top kicker.
Alanpsych
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #8 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 1:54pm »
on Jul 6th, 2005, 11:25am, MJ wrote:
One big thing is to try and not play 'potential' hands nearly as much as full games, because your chances for getting the odds to draw in short-handed are much worse. Drawing to the nuts is not the way to go in short-handed. Betting out your pairs is.
That's what I noticed. Big cards become more valuable (because they make tp more often) and suited connectors are less valuable, just like in heads up. You will occasionally win hands with A high even.
Miamipuck
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #9 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 6:04pm »
There are several advantages that I see for the 6 max tables.
1.) Less players mean it is easier to pick up on your opponents tendencies. For instance I 3 table. If I play on the full ring I have to get to know the tendencies of 27 people sometimes less. With the 6 max it is only 15.
2.) One or two fish do not make a significant difference on full ring, but if you have 2 fish on a 6 max oh man is it on. No need to do the math there.
3.) There are an endless parade of maniacs. This can be both good and bad. (70-75% good). For instance I put a post of the worst player I have seen at Party. I took him for 39.5. However the very next day I played a guy with a similar stat line as him and guess what? I got absolutely mauled.
I lost $25 AA to 7-4 os.
I lost A-6 to 6-10. Went all in on this flop A-5-6. Villain called. Turn was a 10. Then the river was a 10. I lost over $38 bucks to the fish.
I lost $25 A-K suited to 3-2. It was a tilt play. I knew the guy would not fold and yet I pushed he called with bottom pair a 3.
I lost 88 bucks to the same player. His VPIP was over 88% his PFR was 50%. I would do the same exact things over again. He outdrew me 2 out of the 3 times. That is variance for you.
4.) The average VPIP most tables is over 50% which is completely riiculous. That takes all the players(except mine) VPIP as an average............ Huh
One thing I would say is this. I see no need to adjust my strategy significantly. Meaning if you play a tight aggresive game 10-20 VPIP, a PFR of 5+ and an aggro rating of 3+ then you should be fine three tabling. One thing is a must........ you must be aggressive. If you are passive forget it. Cute play gets killed. So even though I do not play a lot of flops I am one mean aggressive bastard when I do. Basically push your little edges to the max, you will be rewarded.
I think they are more exciting. I think the full tables are completely gay not that there is anything wrong with that.
Feel free to ask any questions.
« Last Edit: Jul 6th, 2005, 6:08pm by Miamipuck »
Rode_Dog
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #10 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 6:23pm »
Sklansky, in SSHE, says the ideal is not Tight Agressive, but Tight Attacking. One should attack weak hands, weak draws and, IMO weak players.
His book was for small stakes limit, but the idea applies to full table NL and it sounds like an even better fit to 6max.
Miamipuck
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #11 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 7:57pm »
on Jul 6th, 2005, 6:23pm, Rode_Dog wrote:
Sklansky, in SSHE, says the ideal is not Tight Agressive, but Tight Attacking. One should attack weak hands, weak draws and, IMO weak players.
His book was for small stakes limit, but the idea applies to full table NL and it sounds like an even better fit to 6max.
Not to be a wise ass, but please explain the fucking difference between the two?
I do this sometimes to the good and sometimes to the bad. Sometimes on those six tables the really bad loose players suckout hands like clockwork it really is amazing.
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2005, 7:59pm by Miamipuck »
Rode_Dog
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #12 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 7:18am »
I think the difference is in the level of agression. A player with a PFA of 1.1 can easily be TA. A similar player with a PFA of 3.5 is clearly attacking more often. While both may be profifable long term, the attacking player should be more successful against loose players and weak players. At least this is what I too Sklansky to mean.
Miamipuck
Re: What is the advantage of playing shorthanded
« Reply #13 on: Jul 8th, 2005, 3:47pm »
on Jul 8th, 2005, 7:18am, Rode_Dog wrote:
I think the difference is in the level of agression. A player with a PFA of 1.1 can easily be TA. A similar player with a PFA of 3.5 is clearly attacking more often. While both may be profifable long term, the attacking player should be more successful against loose players and weak players. At least this is what I too Sklansky to mean.
I set my PT whenever a player falls below 2 PFA to be listed as passive. So I would not count that player as being tight aggessive.
Right now my stats list me as a TA/A. The biggest thing I see is that some of the players are so damn loose it is not funny.
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