Tight Poker

[neverthink]

I'm TAG image like usual, villain is a typical "I wanna see a flop" habitual floater type, like most of em are. Eff stacks $100, 6 players. I'm in the small blind this hand.


UTG raises to $4
CO calls $4
Hero with QQ raises to $16
UTG folds
CO calls $12

Flop A 7 2 rainbow (Pots like $35)

Hero thinks... and checks
CO checks

Turn A 7 2 4 rainbow

Hero checks
CO bets $7 into $35ish pot
Hero raises to $16
CO thinks... and calls $9

River A 7 2 4 6 no flush

Hero checks
CO checks


My question is, do you think c-betting the flop is best here. Imo she has either a lower pocket pair like 99 TT or even a weak JJ, or she has Ax probably suited. If you do c-bet it, how much? (I was thinking about $26-$29) and what do you do on the turn if you don't take it down as the pot will be bigger than what is left of our stacks, which may cause her to behave somewhat irrationally.

Though I doubt this has entered her head, I could play AAA or AK like this on the flop on occasions.

[nlman]

deleted

[neverthink]

His hand feels like a weak ace.

I don't think c/r on the flop is a good idea. Betting it out MIGHT scare donk's weak ace away, but c/r looks EXTREMELY untypical for hands like AK or AQ (AA is just too rare to be belivable, especially by donks). He'll just call and you'll end up facing an extremely difficult decision on the turn and river (risking it all on a VERY questionnable bluff vrs giving it up).

I was never planning to check/raise the flop, and if I did check the flop with AAA or AK it would only be to check/call and not raise. I was pretty certain I'd be called on my flop bet by a weak Ace (she called the big reraise pre didn't she), or fold out a few hands that may stab at it in a medium pot on later streets.

[nlman]

Oops, misread it. c-bet (not c-r)... hmm... it might work, but you need to bet close to the pot to make him consider folding. If he calls it, you are a toast.

Ax is very likely from someone like him. I'd c-bet this based on my feel for this hand. Your line is pretty good too for the purposes of getting a cheap showdown.

[ugignadl]

Not cbetting here without a read looks like a leak to me. I would go for 20-25, which is a standard amount for my game.

[neverthink]

Not cbetting here without a read looks like a leak to me. I would go for 20-25, which is a standard amount for my game.

So, with villain having called a raise, and a 4x reraise preflop, what hands do you think I get called by and what do you think I fold out?

As for reads, I think you can assume a fair bit about the player from her preflop play alone. She is clearly not solid and is probably fairly passive, and will not be shaken off easily unless the Ace scares her as it does me. Lets also consider that my hand looks a lot like a big PP preflop which may have just been outflopped unless I have hit AAA, which I am prolly gonna have to show her.

She may be a donkey but they don't always go broke with JJ here, do they?

[ugignadl]

Not cbetting here without a read looks like a leak to me. I would go for 20-25, which is a standard amount for my game.

So, with villain having called a raise, and a 4x reraise preflop, what hands do you think I get called by and what do you think I fold out?

Against a typical unknown I'd expect their range to be any pp, some scs, and AK-AT.

<..>

She may be a donkey but they don't always go broke with JJ here, do they?

Maybe not broke. But at this level I'd say more often than not they are holding JJ-22 here. So why not bet the flop? You will know if she hit the A.

[cavman]

if i don't c-bet, it's because i'm not planning on check-folding. against most opponents, i'm c-betting and shutting down.

edit: i check AK here sometimes

[neverthink]

if i don't c-bet, it's because i'm not planning on check-folding. against most opponents, i'm c-betting and shutting down.

edit: i check AK here sometimes

Cavman, I assume you mean that you are planning on check folding if you don't c-bet, otherwise I'm not sure I follow. Agreed over checking AK occasionally.

Ug, I'd give villain the same range as you, except I side a lot more towards Ace whatever.

Anyways, I checked it since if she called a raise like that with Ax I'm almost never folding it out on the flop. And though she may sometimes, often even, call me with 88-JJ here, I can't follow through profitably on the turn, and I'll have to fold to any bet she makes if she calls me on flop as I'll look very weak by the river if we get there. I doubt she will bet any hands I am ahead of here either.

If she had pot the flop I'd have folded probably. Cussing 3 outers all the way.

[cavman]

i meant what i said. basically, i would never just give up on the pot in this spot, since many people would have a pp here. if i want to give up, i would c-bet, which would get people to fold a great deal of the time (but not put in any more money after that).

If i ever check, it's because i think it's more +ev than betting and giving up. i would only do this with someone very easy to read or way too aggressive. in this case, i'd want to extract more money on the way to a showdown, instead of taking down the pot right there. This certainly isn't my default play, but I'll do this sometimes.

also, i said the thing about AK because every time i 3-bet pre and check the flop, i'm not weak. if i didn't check AK, i'd pretty much have to c-bet QQ everytime.

[cavman]

Anyways, I checked it since if she called a raise like that with Ax I'm almost never folding it out on the flop. And though she may sometimes, often even, call me with 88-JJ here, I can't follow through profitably on the turn, and I'll have to fold to any bet she makes if she calls me on flop as I'll look very weak by the river if we get there. I doubt she will bet any hands I am ahead of here either.

you won't have to "follow up" on the turn. If they call a 2/3 pot sized bet, you're beat. Noone calls a c-bet after a PF 3-bet with an unimproved underpair (on an A or K high flop).

also, many people call pre with any PP, but once you check, they try and take it down since you are playing your hand exactly like KK/QQ (which is a bad thing if that's actually what you have).

[nlman]

you won't have to "follow up" on the turn. If they call a 2/3 pot sized bet, you're beat. Noone calls a c-bet after a PF 3-bet with an unimproved underpair (on an A or K high flop).

Very true. Btw, I'd like to add that some donks will call with trash, but those morons quite rare. You'll definitely know it when you are against one. Without a very very good read you are beat 90% of the time.

[neverthink]

Anyways, I checked it since if she called a raise like that with Ax I'm almost never folding it out on the flop. And though she may sometimes, often even, call me with 88-JJ here, I can't follow through profitably on the turn, and I'll have to fold to any bet she makes if she calls me on flop as I'll look very weak by the river if we get there. I doubt she will bet any hands I am ahead of here either.

you won't have to "follow up" on the turn. If they call a 2/3 pot sized bet, you're beat. Noone calls a c-bet after a PF 3-bet with an unimproved underpair (on an A or K high flop).

also, many people call pre with any PP, but once you check, they try and take it down since you are playing your hand exactly like KK/QQ (which is a bad thing if that's actually what you have).

Well, if I c-bet it is basically a bluff. If I am called I am behind, and all worse hands fold if I am in fact value betting. Seems like a bad spot to bet when I get no value when leading and lose cash on the c-bet when she calls. I could see some sense in betting if I held 99 because it's potentially possible that I could fold out a better hand like TT or JJ that villain may play this way, but as it stands, my hand is quite showdownable, yet I will only ever get value for it post flop by calling rather than betting.

I think it would be very rare that any villain would bet a worse hand on 2 streets to get all in, even after I check to her. Particularly this one.

I also doubt it matters how many hands I would play this way as I've been at the table for less than a hundred hands and never come across villain before as far as I know. My actual range for post flop play could be AQ, AK, AAA, and QQ-99. But I would only reraise a raise and coldcaller with AA-QQ most of the time as I would need good flops holding less than QQ and with AK. So it's actually a smaller range though she won't read me that well. If I felt she was that good I could feel more confident about betting here. Plus I doubt I would find myself in this spot against good players.

However, 3 betting preflop and checking does not always convey weakness imo, as long as you do not just check/fold near habitually.

[cavman]

Well, if I c-bet it is basically a bluff. If I am called I am behind, and all worse hands fold if I am in fact value betting. Seems like a bad spot to bet when I get no value when leading and lose cash on the c-bet when she calls. I could see some sense in betting if I held 99 because it's potentially possible that I could fold out a better hand like TT or JJ that villain may play this way, but as it stands, my hand is quite showdownable, yet I will only ever get value for it post flop by calling rather than betting.

betting the flop makes the hand much easier to play, and there is value in it. of course you're bluffing, but usually, there isn't any value to be made. betting the flop lets you take down the pot a lot of the time. by checking, you have no idea where you are at, and many villains will try and bluff you off of QQ/KK. even if they have a low PP and don't bet (which is basically the best case scenario), at least you don't give them the 10% chance to hit their set.

[cavman]

I also doubt it matters how many hands I would play this way as I've been at the table for less than a hundred hands and never come across villain before as far as I know. My actual range for post flop play could be AQ, AK, AAA, and QQ-99. But I would only reraise a raise and coldcaller with AA-QQ most of the time as I would need good flops holding less than QQ and with AK. So it's actually a smaller range though she won't read me that well. If I felt she was that good I could feel more confident about betting here. Plus I doubt I would find myself in this spot against good players.

although this makes sense at the time of the hand, for a broader perspective of your game, you don't want to be predictable. you don't want to be check-folding everytime you have KK/QQ and an ace flops. As you move up, because will notice this and take pots away from you. the way to stop this, is either checking AK, or c-betting often with KK/QQ.

i'm just saying you should almost never be just check-folding since her range is weighted towards a PP that will fold (but may try and take the pot since you essentially turned your hand face up). also, checking and trying to make more money is a very hard thing to do, since you have no idea where you're at. It's just much easier to play the hand if you bet.

i can see playing the hand the way you did, if your read was that this villain was very tight and passive, and would never fire without an ace, but would just check down any other hand. even then, firing isn't bad, but i could see doing this. but i think having this good a read is unlikely given 100 hands. and, in general, people love to try and take you off a big PP on a-high flops.

why do you think you aren't in this spot again good players?