Standard?

[poormanbilly]

More/less preflop? Other thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) TightPoker converter

MP ($43.95)
CO ($30.95)
Button ($23.60)
SB ($48.45)
Hero ($86.85)
UTG ($48 )

Preflop: Hero is BB with , .
UTG raises to $2.5, 2 folds, Button calls $2.50, SB calls $2.25, Hero raises to $10, UTG calls $7.50, Button calls $7.50, SB folds.

Flop: ($32.50) , , (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $20, Button calls $13.60 (All-In), Hero folds.

Turn: ($66.10) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($66.10) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $66.10

Results hidden below:
UTG has Ts Td (three of a kind, tens).
Button has 9c 9d (three of a kind, nines).
Outcome: UTG wins $66.09.

[goofyballer]

I'd go more preflop. A PSR is to $10.5 and when I'm OOP in the blinds I raise bigger since taking it down preflop becomes more attractive than playing a pot OOP. On the flop I was waiting for the part where you c/r AI...and then you folded? Huh?

[poormanbilly]

I'd go more preflop. A PSR is to $10.5 and when I'm OOP in the blinds I raise bigger since taking it down preflop becomes more attractive than playing a pot OOP. On the flop I was waiting for the part where you c/r AI...and then you folded? Huh?

The only problem with raising more is that I'm always called when I'm beat. I think I got the information I needed and the flop is shitty, so c/f it is.

[goofyballer]

The only problem with raising more is that I'm always called when I'm beat.

I'm not sure what you mean. Obviously KK/AA aren't folding; are you saying that the only hands that call you are hands that beat you? I strongly disagree. From bad players, 88+ (or possibly any pair) AQ+ never fold here.

It was indeed a shitty flop, but I don't think checking gives you any information whatsoever. Your hand looks like a whiffed AK so far and the actions of all villains should be interpreted as such, imo. I think you get more information by betting the flop and seeing how people react than you do by checking. Button could be calling with just about anything being as short as he is, and UTG (without reads of course) could just as easily have AJ and think he has the best hand.

[neverthink]

Preflop is standard for me, 3 times original raise plus an extra one for every coldcaller. Um, I bet the flop for about 20 and fold to a raise. Not sure why you are checking it to be honest, you wanted to checkraise? Scary flop for that, I think leading is better, then you can easily fold to a raise.

[poormanbilly]

The button being in this hand had zero impact in how I played this. Look at the action though. UTG raise 5x preflop = good hand. It gets to me and I repop him. If he pushes, it's AA or KK for sure with 2 others in the pot, but he smooth calls. That tells me a lot about his holding. The flop comes with a jack and a ten. At that point, I'm beating almost nothing. My hand is garbage. I checked to confirm and UTG bets out strong. He's bluffing here about zero percent of the time and holding AJ/AQ/AK even less.

[neverthink]

Wow, you actually just chose to check fold this flop on sight? AK-AJ never calls the preflop reraise then? He has just done so with a pair of tens, which is infinitely worse than the aforementioned AK. So he has shown that he will call with a range that you will be good against plenty of the time. Checking just invites a bet, which is why I don't like it. You bet and raise for info, and I don't think you gain any and probably fold the best hand a lot here. If you have Kings or Aces here, do you do the same? Sounds like you should be. I disagree that your hand is garbage here often enough to give up on it without making a stand at least.

I am often staggered at what they will bet if checked to at the 100, and I know from my time there that the 50 is the wild west. If you know this guy enough to be very sure he has 99-JJ, then it is a great read and disciplined action for sure.

You say though, that anybody who bets that strongly never has anything as weak as AJ on this board, yet the guy behind raised all in on 3rd pair! You sure about this? Anyone calling with TT preflop is calling with any decent Ace they have already raised in my experience, and occasionally to my dismay.

Checking confirms nothing imo, and you beat AK, AQ, AJ and a flush and straight draw (oh, and nines). Thats plenty enough to see if they'll come over the top of you.

[poormanbilly]

Wow, you actually just chose to check fold this flop on sight?

Not on sight. Based on all of the information I had. If either a J or a T falls, I'm playing the hand. When they both fall, I can't beat much.

AK-AJ never calls the preflop reraise then?

They call the raise for sure, but they don't bluff the flop much. They'd be too scared I checked my big pocket pair to them.

a pair of tens, which is infinitely worse than the aforementioned AK.

Huh?

You bet and raise for info, and I don't think you gain any and probably fold the best hand a lot here.

Why do I need to bet and raise for info when my opponents will do it for me?

If you have Kings or Aces here, do you do the same?

If I have Aces, I can beat KK or QQ. With QQ, I can't beat AA, KK, and now neither JJ nor TT.

I disagree that your hand is garbage here often enough to give up on it without making a stand at least.

Here is a quote from this article by Sklansky.
http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue20/sklansky0806-2.html

Reading hands. Doing this well is even more important in big bet, short handed, or super tough games. And there are some who overate the importance of this skill in limit ring games. But even in those games it is still very important and weakness in this area is often the reason for the downfall of "bookish" types. There are four main ways to read hands:

1. Psychology. (No way he would have the guts to bet in this spot.")
2. Tells. ("He always scratches his nose when he is weak.") I have already warned that generic tells, typically learned from a book, are too unreliable in most bigger games. Picking up an individual tell on an individual player is a different story however.
3. Deduction. ("He raised the guy on his right on the multiway flop. So it's highly unlikely the river flush card hit him.")
4. Math. (His raise means aces, kings, or queens. With a queen on board it is 12-to-3 against him having a set.")

Though multiway pots reduce the value of the first two categories, they increase the importance of the last two.

When you say my hand isn't garbage here often enough, you're using #4, math. When I looked at this hand, I used #3, deduction. It's a fool's game to use math when deduction gives you a better answer and vice versa.

I am often staggered at what they will bet if checked to at the 100, and I know from my time there that the 50 is the wild west. If you know this guy enough to be very sure he has 99-JJ, then it is a great read and disciplined action for sure.

Again, no reads were to be found. He just sat down. It's pure looking at the preflop action, looking at what I have, what he thinks I have, and what I can beat.

Checking confirms nothing imo, and you beat AK, AQ, AJ and a flush and straight draw (oh, and nines). Thats plenty enough to see if they'll come over the top of you.

I strongly disagree with you and Goofy that checking proves nothing here (which was mostly the point of posting the hand). People just don't bluff at you enough, if you've shown strength, to start saying "ZOMG, I have overs!" *PUSH* "WTF?! You have a set?" *BFZ POST*

[scottie_g]

PMB = lil zeus ???

[goofyballer]

lol I thought exactly the same thing

btw, I don't think he has AK/AQ but AJ is a possibility.

[bram]

Wow, you actually just chose to check fold this flop on sight? AK-AJ never calls the preflop reraise then? He has just done so with a pair of tens, which is infinitely worse than the aforementioned AK.

you mean infinitely better right?

[poormanbilly]

PMB = lil zeus ???

[neverthink]

Wow, you actually just chose to check fold this flop on sight? AK-AJ never calls the preflop reraise then? He has just done so with a pair of tens, which is infinitely worse than the aforementioned AK.

you mean infinitely better right?

No, there is no set value for UTG in calling this, he does not know that the guy behind will not fold. There are also certain to be overcards to his pair, so most of the time he will hate his hand on the flop. If he calls with AK, he probably will not get paid any further if he hits, but he will probably have the best hand if he hits an Ace, and sometimes with a King. I fold both actually, but as a preference I would rather call with AK in order to recoup what I have lost. I mean worse. The guy calling behind that with nines is a fair enough play though.

[neverthink]

Wow, you actually just chose to check fold this flop on sight?

Not on sight. Based on all of the information I had. If either a J or a T falls, I'm playing the hand. When they both fall, I can't beat much.

AK-AJ never calls the preflop reraise then?

They call the raise for sure, but they don't bluff the flop much. They'd be too scared I checked my big pocket pair to them.

a pair of tens, which is infinitely worse than the aforementioned AK.

Huh?

See my reply to Bram.

You bet and raise for info, and I don't think you gain any and probably fold the best hand a lot here.

Why do I need to bet and raise for info when my opponents will do it for me?

Your opponents react to what you tell them. You check, you look weak. You bet you look strong. You have a big overpair, you need to show strength. You often check AA or KK here?

If you have Kings or Aces here, do you do the same?

If I have Aces, I can beat KK or QQ. With QQ, I can't beat AA, KK, and now neither JJ nor TT.

You think that KK and QQ don't shove preflop? His play is not suggestive of AA or KK, more like AK-AJ, and QQ is mathematically unlikely given that you hold two. If I fold QQ here I fold AA as well. I am either believing I am behind a set or my pair is good, and I'm ahead of his calling range other than TT and JJ.

I disagree that your hand is garbage here often enough to give up on it without making a stand at least.

Here is a quote from this article by Sklansky.
http://twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue20/sklansky0806-2.html

Reading hands. Doing this well is even more important in big bet, short handed, or super tough games. And there are some who overate the importance of this skill in limit ring games. But even in those games it is still very important and weakness in this area is often the reason for the downfall of "bookish" types. There are four main ways to read hands:

1. Psychology. (No way he would have the guts to bet in this spot.")
2. Tells. ("He always scratches his nose when he is weak.") I have already warned that generic tells, typically learned from a book, are too unreliable in most bigger games. Picking up an individual tell on an individual player is a different story however.
3. Deduction. ("He raised the guy on his right on the multiway flop. So it's highly unlikely the river flush card hit him.")
4. Math. (His raise means aces, kings, or queens. With a queen on board it is 12-to-3 against him having a set.")

Though multiway pots reduce the value of the first two categories, they increase the importance of the last two.

When you say my hand isn't garbage here often enough, you're using #4, math. When I looked at this hand, I used #3, deduction. It's a fool's game to use math when deduction gives you a better answer and vice versa.

You need to use a measure of both, "it is a fools game" to disregard one over the other. Maths is there to aid with the probable, and your deductive reading to narrow down the probable holding of a particular player even further. In the paragraph below, you say that there were no reads though. Is it not possible that the UTG is as crazy as the BB with the nines? How about this scenario. The UTG folds to your reraise preflop, BB calls, you check to him, he shoves all in, and you fold to nines. Because to CC two raises like that you have to figure him for slowplaying a big pair no? AA or KK, and so on that board you beat little. Your thinking is commendable, but you have to make a stand. If the board was JT9, fine, I may check fold as KQ or any of those PPs has you beat, but here I am betting.

Also, you critisized me for suggesting that in some situations preflop folding Kings was profitable in the long run. Yet you based your defense of Kings on the very same maths logic that you think I am applying here. "I have second nuts preflop, I should push" despie information to the contrary.

I looked at the preflop play with a standard idea for NL 50 and 100 players, and used maths and deductive logic to decide whther the flop hit him or not. It hit him if he called with JJ or TT. Thats it. I have no concerns over bigger pairs than my own. If this player has just sat down as well, then his preflop raise and call say that he knows little of the game imo. It's just a poor play whatever hand he holds at this level. At higher limits, there is a case for KK, but even that is not common.

I am often staggered at what they will bet if checked to at the 100, and I know from my time there that the 50 is the wild west. If you know this guy enough to be very sure he has 99-JJ, then it is a great read and disciplined action for sure.

Again, no reads were to be found. He just sat down. It's pure looking at the preflop action, looking at what I have, what he thinks I have, and what I can beat.

Checking confirms nothing imo, and you beat AK, AQ, AJ and a flush and straight draw (oh, and nines). Thats plenty enough to see if they'll come over the top of you.

I strongly disagree with you and Goofy that checking proves nothing here (which was mostly the point of posting the hand). People just don't bluff at you enough, if you've shown strength, to start saying "ZOMG, I have overs!" *PUSH* "WTF?! You have a set?" *BFZ POST*

No but they will bet their AJ, KJs and even QJ or shove their flush or straight draw enough. You have not shown any strength. They think that you have AK and can be pushed off. They see a big pot and think "free money". What on earth else controls the actions of the BB with nines in this hand. Can't you see the rabid look in his eyes? It is a big pot, they are not going to fold top pair, or any kind of draw.

Also, we did not advocate a push, just to test the waters. 2/3 bet lets the realize they need a great hand to beat you, if they have it, awesome for them, you can make the correct decision now. I accept though that it is pretty marginal and check/folding to a big bet is not so bad, decreases variance at least which is always favourable. A big laydown though.

[bram]

Wow, you actually just chose to check fold this flop on sight? AK-AJ never calls the preflop reraise then? He has just done so with a pair of tens, which is infinitely worse than the aforementioned AK.

you mean infinitely better right?

No, there is no set value for UTG in calling this, he does not know that the guy behind will not fold. There are also certain to be overcards to his pair, so most of the time he will hate his hand on the flop. If he calls with AK, he probably will not get paid any further if he hits, but he will probably have the best hand if he hits an Ace, and sometimes with a King. I fold both actually, but as a preference I would rather call with AK in order to recoup what I have lost. I mean worse. The guy calling behind that with nines is a fair enough play though.

a 4 bet from a tight player out of the blinds means AA,KK,QQ AK now i think calling with either 1010 and AK is not a good play at this level. However calling with AK is worse as you will either lose your entire stack if an A or a K falls and bb reraiser has AA or KK, or you will fold when you miss, the times that an A or a K falls you are not going to get paid off from QQ. Whereas 1010, you hit your set and get it all in by the turn against someone with AA, KK AK with top pair, you fold otherwise, if the player 4betting is loose you might call his cbet on a raggy board and take it away on the turn if he shows weakness.

with deeper stacks I would much rather have 1010 here than AK calling a 4bet with position, in this situation i prefer to fold both.