Tight Poker

[micloren]

and im wondering if im playing it right...

I see these people bet out from EP on flush draws on the flop.

I have TP or better in position. So i raise.

They immediately reraise. Then i cap depending on the strength of my hand.

They BO again on the turn if its a blank ... and if im certain they are on the draw i reraise... and they reraise back...

Other times i might just call them down...

It is pretty much the same crap every time. They raise as if they are going to hit the flush everytime.

Now im curious: Is it better to just call these people down or reraise them when you know they are probably on the draw...

[micloren]

The thing that sucks lately is i cant remember a time when their flush didn't hit.

[zardnok]

If you put them on a draw, make them pay to hit it. Do not give them cheap cards because you are scared. They will miss their draw more often than they hit it and you need to punish them for trying!

[uncledave]

Have a look at the flop good and close.
Is it possible they could have a top pair also and have the flush draw? How about a straight draw too?
I think if you have them on a draw only then you have to make them pay as big as you can for it and if they hit it, well then you just have to take that on the chin. You should win them often enough that it is worthwhile raising on them.

Play strongly and if they have any sense they will eventually see you will not be pushed off your good hand.

DS

[alanpsych]

I'm curious as to why you feel so sure they're on a draw (aside from the fact that they fold the river when it misses) rather than something else (two pair, set, etc.) that would merit raising hard, unless it's someone who always slowplays a big, made hand? If you're sure it's just a draw, then, yeah, ram and jam, and then congratulate yourself on your smart play, even though they hit on the river. And try not to break anything.

[jp]

I could be wrong since I have not read the book yet, but I believe in Small Stakes Hold'em, Ed Miller suggests pumping up the pot when you have a strong flush draw. I think his reasoning is that when you do hit, you will get payed off nicely and it will makeup and exceed the times that you don't (or something to that effect).

I think I remember this being discussed on the old forum when the book was first released. If that is the case, people are prolly reading his book and following his advice.

Someone who has read the book can tell me if I'm correct, or if I'm in la la land making this up.

[micloren]

I could be wrong since I have not read the book yet, but I believe in Small Stakes Hold'em, Ed Miller suggests pumping up the pot when you have a strong flush draw. I think his reasoning is that when you do hit, you will get payed off nicely and it will makeup and exceed the times that you don't (or something to that effect).

I think I remember this being discussed on the old forum when the book was first released. If that is the case, people are prolly reading his book and following his advice.

Someone who has read the book can tell me if I'm correct, or if I'm in la la land making this up.

He does based on how many people are in the pot. If you have 5-6 people in the pot you should most likely raise. However, these people are capping it when its just me and them in the pot.

[jp]

However, these people are capping it when its just me and them in the pot.

If that's the case, my advice is like the others. You will need to punish the drawers and suck it up when they do hit. They are the ones chasing, you need to make them pay when they are behind.

[biggle10]

Its obvious they own a state-of-the-art pattern mapper.

[micloren]

I guess my thought was ... whether or not i call them down or raise ... since im going to win more in the long run im still basically punishing them either way.

But the more EV play yall would say is to raise them.

[scottie_g]

If you are heads up, people may try to do this to "get a free card" on you if you are playing your TP weakly. If you have this guy pegged as an aggressive fuck that likes to do this, keep raising him right back. IMO, sometimes people do this excessively and it is -EV.... unless the free card play works. Make them pay for a draw.

Also, in large pots, a nut flush or str8 draw has huge equity. Esp if there are 4-5 ppl in the pot, you can raise it liberally because of all the pot equity you have.

One other mistake I think I have made in the past is FOLDING too much in big pots. I'm sure I still make the mistake. If the pot is huge, please, please, do not fold your mid pair to 1 or 2 big bets on the river.

[redz]

Odds are about 2:1 of hitting a flopped flush draw by the river. So a raise is a good Idea for the drawer if it gets called by 2 other people. If it is you and him heads up it is not a good raise on his part odds wise but it does get him the free card on the river if you stop betting into him. So It's not a bad play and is a good play if its a 3 way pot or more. And don't forget it's semi bluff potential.

4 players or more in the pot and I love getting some raises in, its a very powerful play as it also gives you the image of a crazy player and will get you paid off in the future when your betting your top pair top kicker. It's a risky play though because you don't want to be shutting people out the out.

It's one of the very few fancy plays thats useable at low stakes.


Thinking about it I need to use it more as I'm getting a bit of a Rock Image i think lol.

[redz]

but 90% of players at low limits are just betting cos they like a nice big pot when they do hit, i think they like the ego boost of taking down a big pot.

If you think this is what they are doing bear in mind that they are about 2:1 underdogs to hit by the river so keep reraising them back u will win out in the long run, even though some times it doesnt seem like that.

[alanpsych]

Odds are about 2:1 of hitting a flopped flush draw by the river. So a raise is a good Idea for the drawer if it gets called by 2 other people.

I agree that a raise is a good idea, but not for this reason. The 1.8:1 odds of hitting a flush by the river is a good stat to know, but is more applicable in NL all in situations. In limit, you're going to have to pay on the turn AND on the river, so you need to be thinking 4:1 odds twice rather than 1.8:1 once. Four or more opponents, then you are raising for value. The main reasons for raising on a flush draw are for 1) deception (representing a made hand), 2) fold equity, 3) free card play (usually only works in position; already mentioned). For me, there's a 4th reason, which is related to tilt control problems, but that's not important now.

[mousey]

I could be wrong since I have not read the book yet, but I believe in Small Stakes Hold'em, Ed Miller suggests pumping up the pot when you have a strong flush draw. I think his reasoning is that when you do hit, you will get payed off nicely and it will makeup and exceed the times that you don't (or something to that effect).

Yes, I have read this book many many times; when you have a flush draw you win a good 2.2 : 1 or close to it. The thing is, Ed miller says to raise when your % of the input is smaller than your share of the out put.

For example; if you are guaranteed to win a hand 50% of the time. And you have 4 people in the pot who are likely to call if you raise and possible reraise, then that means you are inputting 25% and getting 50% of the money back. This is why you raise these kinds of draws; because you have an edge here.

Heads up or in smaller pots you do not make this play because you no longer have the same kind of edge; however, it is often suggested to raise in position to attempt a free card on the turn if your flush draw also has minimal types of other draws: gut shots + 1 over card for example. ; Hopefully a strong enough overcard to warrant a flop raise for a turn check.