Tight Poker

[fifo]

This was easily my biggest pot yet. A WHOLE Dollar!! Well, I guess 25 BB is quite a pot...

But still, what do you think? Too bold?

GAME #441588551: 2c / 4c Limit (ok) - 2006-10-07 12:51:08
Table Echt

Seat 2: Heady74 ($10.27 in chips)
Seat 4: d4agreggg ($1.36 in chips)
Seat 6: mrzakko ($1.42 in chips)
Seat 8: pform ($10.52 in chips)
Seat 9: pretreltigha ($1.66 in chips)

pretreltigha: SB $0.01
Heady74: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [SA S7]
d4agreggg: Call $0.02
mrzakko: Call $0.02
pform: Fold
pretreltigha: Call $0.01
Heady74: Check
*** FLOP *** [C10 SJ S10] ($0.08 )
pretreltigha: Bet $0.02
This is pot-odds wise the closest call in this whole pot: exactly 1:4. But judging from earlier play, Implied Odds were quite huge.
Actually, this is the only bet I feel worth talking about and the reason I post this. Of course, I figured that the only way I can win this pot is with a flush. I guess there was some chance of a full house, but I just disregarded that...
So, going for the flush, I usually want to get cheap cards. But I figured, that there's a back side to this:
- If I start betting only after I have made my flush, people will realize easier that I have made a flush. They'll probably still look me up, but as cheaply as possible.
- If I start betting earlier, naturally I risk loosing more. But, not only will I also win more if I make the flush, but also people will be more likely to put me on a different hand if I start betting earlier. I hoped that this would outweight the additional bet or two I invest in the cases I don't make the flush

Heady74: Call $0.02
d4agreggg: Call $0.02
mrzakko: Raise $0.04
pretreltigha: Call $0.02
Heady74: Call $0.02
d4agreggg: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [C10 SJ S10 DQ] ($0.24)
pretreltigha: Check <- yeah, well, maybe I should have then stayed on course and bet out again? But maybe my "weakness" made them confident?
Heady74: Bet $0.04
d4agreggg: Call $0.04
mrzakko: Raise $0.08
pretreltigha: Call $0.08 Just about 1:4 again...
Heady74: Call $0.04
d4agreggg: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [C10 SJ S10 DQ SK]
pretreltigha: Bet $0.04
Heady74: Raise $0.08
d4agreggg: Call $0.08
mrzakko: Call $0.08
pretreltigha: Raise $0.08
Heady74: Call $0.04
d4agreggg: Call $0.04
mrzakko: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Heady74: shows (mucked) [S8 D9] (Straight)
d4agreggg: shows (mucked) [HA HQ] (Straight)
mrzakko: shows (mucked) [C6 DJ] (Two pair)
pretreltigha: shows [SA S7] (Flush)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.99 Rake $0.05 <- unbelievable that they actually do collect Rake from that
pretreltigha: wins $0.99

So, what do you think? Is raising early with a healthy flush draw ok? Or a recipe for desaster in the long term?

[biggle10]

I like it all until the river. I don't know what the games are like at this level, but at .5/1 and up I don't like the river 3-bet. The villain didn't slow down at all when the flush hit, which often means boat, especially with the board that's there. I just call.

[fifo]

I like it all until the river. I don't know what the games are like at this level...

Awful, just awful. (You are right about the boat threat, though)

GAME #441686669: 2c / 4c Limit (ok) - 2006-10-07 18:14:01
Table Brands Hatch

Seat 2: pretreltigha ($2.09 in chips)
Seat 3: pomtsud ($0.58 in chips)
Seat 4: zeox3001 ($2.29 in chips)
Seat 5: vitalis07 ($0.73 in chips)
Seat 6: memo46 ($1.56 in chips)
Seat 7: Acehighbet ($1.09 in chips)
Seat 8: Pluggie ($0.51 in chips)
Seat 9: MotoCycleBoi ($1.78 in chips)
Seat 10: skydriver ($2.98 in chips)

skydriver: SB $0.01
pretreltigha: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [CJ H5]
pomtsud: Call $0.02
zeox3001: Fold
vitalis07: Call $0.02
memo46: Raise $0.04
Acehighbet: Raise $0.06 <- as it turns out, he holds T2s.
Pluggie: Call $0.06
MotoCycleBoi: Fold
skydriver: Call $0.05
pretreltigha: Fold
pomtsud: Call $0.04
vitalis07: Call $0.04
memo46: Call $0.02
*** FLOP *** [DK D9 C6]
skydriver: Check
pomtsud: Check
vitalis07: Check
memo46: Bet $0.02
Acehighbet: Raise $0.04
Pluggie: Call $0.04
skydriver: Fold
pomtsud: Fold
vitalis07: Fold
memo46: Raise $0.04
Acehighbet: Raise $0.04
Pluggie: Call $0.04
memo46: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [DK D9 C6 D3]
memo46: Bet $0.04
Acehighbet: Raise $0.08
Pluggie: Call $0.08
memo46: Raise $0.08
Acehighbet: Raise $0.08
Pluggie: Call $0.08
memo46: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [DK D9 C6 D3 SQ]
memo46: Check
Acehighbet: Bet $0.04
Pluggie: Call $0.04
memo46: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
memo46: shows (mucked) [S9 C9] (Three of a kind)
Acehighbet: shows [D2 D10] (Flush)
Pluggie: shows (mucked) [SJ SK] (Pair)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.17 Rake $0.05
Acehighbet: wins $1.17

GAME #441688458: 2c / 4c Limit (ok) - 2006-10-07 18:19:18
Table Brands Hatch

Seat 2: pretreltigha ($2.06 in chips)
Seat 3: pomtsud ($0.33 in chips)
Seat 4: zeox3001 ($2.27 in chips)
Seat 5: vitalis07 ($0.59 in chips)
Seat 6: memo46 ($1.51 in chips)
Seat 7: Acehighbet ($2.03 in chips)
Seat 8: Pluggie ($0.07 in chips)
Seat 9: MotoCycleBoi ($1.78 in chips)
Seat 10: skydriver ($2.92 in chips)

zeox3001: SB $0.01
vitalis07: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [D5 HJ]
memo46: Raise $0.04
Acehighbet: Raise $0.06 <- again, K2s
Pluggie: Fold
MotoCycleBoi: Fold
skydriver: Fold
pretreltigha: Fold
pomtsud: Call $0.06
zeox3001: Fold
vitalis07: Call $0.04
memo46: Raise $0.04 <- he's holding TT. Quite a subtle way of saying "Mine is longer"
Acehighbet: Call $0.02
pomtsud: Call $0.02
vitalis07: Call $0.02
*** FLOP *** [S2 D3 H4]
vitalis07: Check
memo46: Bet $0.02
Acehighbet: Raise $0.04 <- Fortune favors the lucky, I guess. Raising with bottom pair...
pomtsud: Call $0.04
vitalis07: Fold
memo46: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [S2 D3 H4 C2]
memo46: Bet $0.04
Acehighbet: Raise $0.08
pomtsud: Call $0.08
memo46: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [S2 D3 H4 C2 H3]
memo46: Bet $0.04
Acehighbet: Raise $0.08
pomtsud: Fold
memo46: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
memo46: shows (mucked) [S10 H10] (Two pair)
Acehighbet: shows [H2 HK] (Full house)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.85 Rake $0
Acehighbet: wins $0.85

Memo was seriously pissed after this, I imagine. That's the only explanation for this:

GAME #441689378: 2c / 4c Limit (ok) - 2006-10-07 18:22:00
Table Brands Hatch

Seat 2: pretreltigha ($2.06 in chips)
Seat 4: zeox3001 ($2.26 in chips)
Seat 5: vitalis07 ($0.49 in chips)
Seat 6: memo46 ($1.21 in chips)
Seat 7: Acehighbet ($2.36 in chips)
Seat 9: MotoCycleBoi ($1.78 in chips)
Seat 10: skydriver ($3.2 in chips)

memo46: SB $0.01
Acehighbet: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [H7 D7]
MotoCycleBoi: Fold
skydriver: Fold
pretreltigha: Call $0.02
zeox3001: Fold
vitalis07: Call $0.02
memo46: Call $0.01
Acehighbet: Raise $0.02
pretreltigha: Call $0.02
vitalis07: Call $0.02
memo46: Call $0.02
*** FLOP *** [C6 S2 D9]
memo46: Check
Acehighbet: Bet $0.02
pretreltigha: Call $0.02
vitalis07: Fold
memo46: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [C6 S2 D9 CJ]
memo46: Check
Acehighbet: Bet $0.04
pretreltigha: Fold <- I knew that those two simply couldn't bring themselves to _not_ raise each other. Must be some male thing - can't imagine women doing this. So I was prepared to let my 77 count something. But still, I chickened out...
memo46: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [C6 S2 D9 CJ D3]
memo46: Bet $0.04
Acehighbet: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
memo46: shows [SK HA] (None) ... and just stared at the screen in disbelieve...
Acehighbet: shows (mucked) [CQ CA] (None)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.38 Rake $0
memo46: wins $0.38

Shortly after that, Acehigh left, stopping the pissing contest with memo. Didn't stop the folly though...

GAME #441690869: 2c / 4c Limit (ok) - 2006-10-07 18:26:29
Table Brands Hatch

Seat 2: pretreltigha ($1.98 in chips)
Seat 3: didine1 ($0.98 in chips)
Seat 4: fatboyz ($5 in chips)
Seat 5: vitalis07 ($0.58 in chips)
Seat 6: memo46 ($1.62 in chips)
Seat 9: MotoCycleBoi ($1.75 in chips)
Seat 10: skydriver ($3.17 in chips)

pretreltigha: SB $0.01
didine1: BB $0.02
fatboyz: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [C5 DA]
fatboyz: Check
vitalis07: Call $0.02
memo46: Call $0.02
MotoCycleBoi: Fold
skydriver: Fold
pretreltigha: Fold
didine1: Check
*** FLOP *** [S2 D6 HJ]
didine1: Check
fatboyz: Check
vitalis07: Bet $0.02 <- holds J8o. Betting with top pair shit kicker is _maybe_ ok, I guess
memo46: Raise $0.04 <- trying to get his losses from SuperManiac Ace back: raising with J4o
didine1: Call $0.04
fatboyz: Call $0.04 <- sure, is there any reason why one should not cold-call with a A6o??
vitalis07: Raise $0.04
memo46: Call $0.02 paying...
didine1: Call $0.02
fatboyz: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [S2 D6 HJ HA]
didine1: Check
fatboyz: Bet $0.04
vitalis07: Raise $0.08 ... well, let's just pretend there is no ace...
memo46: Call $0.08 ... and paying...
didine1: Fold
fatboyz: Raise $0.08
vitalis07: Raise $0.08 ... no, no, no, there's really no ace
memo46: Call $0.08 ... and paying...
fatboyz: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [S2 D6 HJ HA C4]
fatboyz: Bet $0.04
vitalis07: Raise $0.08 NO, THERE IS NO ACE!!!
memo46: Raise $0.12
fatboyz: Call $0.08
vitalis07: Raise $0.08 *whisper No!
memo46: Call $0.04
fatboyz: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
fatboyz: shows [CA S6] (Two pair)
vitalis07: shows [S8 DJ] (Pair)
memo46: shows (mucked) [SJ H4] (Two pair)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.24 Rake $0.05
fatboyz: wins $1.24 I mean, this is just sick. That's 31 BB for a hand, in which neither had a real good reason to be in.

And so on and on and on and on...

But still, I had my first hand where I was a bit proud of myself

Seat 1: sexymama88 ($1 in chips)
Seat 2: pretreltigha ($2.26 in chips)
Seat 4: fatboyz ($5.86 in chips)
Seat 6: memo46 ($1.04 in chips)
Seat 8: Astrosan ($2.46 in chips)
Seat 9: MotoCycleBoi ($1.64 in chips)
Seat 10: skydriver ($2.73 in chips)

MotoCycleBoi: SB $0.01
skydriver: BB $0.02
sexymama88: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [SK C10]
sexymama88: Check
pretreltigha: Call $0.02
fatboyz: Raise $0.04 Idiot boy. Raising with 72o just because it worked once...
memo46: Fold
Astrosan: Call $0.04
MotoCycleBoi: Fold
skydriver: Call $0.02
sexymama88: Call $0.02
pretreltigha: Call $0.02
*** FLOP *** [DK H4 DJ]
skydriver: Check
sexymama88: Check
pretreltigha: Bet $0.02
fatboyz: Call $0.02
Astrosan: Fold
skydriver: Call $0.02
sexymama88: Fold
*** TURN *** [DK H4 DJ DQ]
skydriver: Check
pretreltigha: Check
fatboyz: Check
*** RIVER *** [DK H4 DJ DQ D7]
skydriver: Check
pretreltigha: Check
fatboyz: Bet $0.04 He tried to be smart for quite a few hands. Always betting the River if noone had shown any strenght. So, since he didn't bet out on the Turn (which he probably would have had he made his flush), I didn't quite believe him...
skydriver: Fold
pretreltigha: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pretreltigha: shows [SK C10] (Pair)
fatboyz: shows [S2 H7] (Pair)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.35 Rake $0
pretreltigha: wins $0.35
... and was quite thrilled. My first "read" of someone

[sfustsh]

Wow that's a lot of hands to read, I'll start with the first post.

I DON'T bet the flop: here's why.

1) you're in first position, they 'expect' you to check
2) there are 3 left to act, so you will likely have to call a raise if you bet
3) you do not immediately reveal flush draw when you check, you can bet this turn to prove it

Your second point is wrong, however. By betting now you don't necessarily build the pot nor do you cost yourself a lot of money, one raise is worth one bet on the next streets. A flop bet will get raised by a whole load of crap. You don't want to call raises with a draw, ever. Despite all the implied things like the chance of getting paid off, you have to avoid it.

If you are going to check, I bet the turn regardless of the card.
If you get your flush, obviously bet, if you don't, bet anyway to build some pot odds (build NOW since it's TWICE as much, but take the turn card for CHEAP) and to hide a flush draw.


As played, the turn check doesn't mean much, they're going to call anyway, so don't give them a chance to raise, you STILL haven't gotten your flush yet.

I don't agree with Biggle10, I am losing to boats here with the nut flush, and you're dragging 2 other players, worth it to build this one.


That last hand in your second post I probably would have bet the turn, don't see any reason not to. Still gotta stop draws to 1 diamond if they're out there, and K might still be good. Besides if you're losing to two pair or trips then 9s and A make a straight.

[fifo]

Wow that's a lot of hands to read, I'll start with the first post.

Yes, disregard all those in the second post. They're just for illustration.

I DON'T bet the flop: here's why.

1) you're in first position, they 'expect' you to check
2) there are 3 left to act, so you will likely have to call a raise if you bet
3) you do not immediately reveal flush draw when you check, you can bet this turn to prove it

But what if the turn already brings the flush? If I check the flop, bet the turn and the flush draw shows up, I'll look just like the normal "flush-drawer".

Your second point is wrong, however. By betting now you don't necessarily build the pot nor do you cost yourself a lot of money, one raise is worth one bet on the next streets. A flop bet will get raised by a whole load of crap. You don't want to call raises with a draw, ever. Despite all the implied things like the chance of getting paid off, you have to avoid it.

Why that? (see below)

If you are going to check, I bet the turn regardless of the card.
If you get your flush, obviously bet, if you don't, bet anyway to build some pot odds (build NOW since it's TWICE as much, but take the turn card for CHEAP) and to hide a flush draw.

You are right that I don't necessarily lose money by betting the draw rather than the made hand. As long as enough people stay in the pot I can just stick to my 36% expectation and be happy with it. But then, why don't I just take this to the logical conclusion that whenever I have the nut flush draw, I simply raise to high heaven? Well, maybe not to high heaven because there are quads and full houses possible, but every now and then, people might fold to me so that maybe equals out?
As long as I get proper odds on every single bet I make, why should I worry whether it's a "genuin" bet or a raise I call? It's not like a raise indicates a flush-killing monster every time (as those other crap-hands show I posted).

As played, the turn check doesn't mean much, they're going to call anyway, so don't give them a chance to raise, you STILL haven't gotten your flush yet.

So, to clarify, you'd also have checked but called a bet, right?

That last hand in your second post I probably would have bet the turn, don't see any reason not to. Still gotta stop draws to 1 diamond if they're out there, and K might still be good. Besides if you're losing to two pair or trips then 9s and A make a straight.

Not that I did the math when I played the hand, but I get 1:8 odds. Not enough for the straight but plenty for any flush. Besides, I didn't _know_ that noone had a flush (c/r those seems to be quite popular at that level). I kind of suspected skydriver to have one and was very delighted when he folded. I probably wouldn't have payed him off. Fatty was a different matter (though it was still a very close call - that's why I was happy I made it. I usually tend to believe people if they bet out on the apparent flush.)

[sfustsh]

If the turn brings the flush then it brings the flush, your best bet is to hope someone made a hand they can play with you with.

Don't get FPS here by trying to semibluff the flop with a bet. Just try to take the free card, like you're supposed to. This deception is lost on most of your opponents.

I bet the turn if the card is a blank because then you will much more likely pay off on the river. Your opponents 'will' pick up on this strength. If the card you want falls you just have to bet, you will lose too much value if you don't. Now is the time to build the pot if you feel your opponents are sticking around. If it's just been checks the whole way, just take the next card for free feeling confident you have the best hand if you nail and hope you're not the only flush drawer.

I know you said that it doesn't matter if it's a turn or river bet (2 BB) you have to call or a raise on the flop (still 2 BB) you have to call but it does. You can see the turn card for zero or 1 BB and save 1 BB by not calling a raise because more often than not you will not hit your flush. The implied parts of betting out don't balance out the fact that you need to win more often to make these bets worth it.

I'd call one bet on the turn, you still get explicit odds to call. If it was 3 bet into my check you have to fold. I do not bet here though because it costs you 2BB to bet and then a potential raise of another 2BB you will be forced to call because of your odds. You are really hoping that you hit your flush, and if you bet again on the turn you are costing yourself as many as 4 BB that you would not need to make if you don't bet.

As for the other hand I commented on, I pretty much take this on by instinct. There's too much variation in your opponents' hands to be exact. Basically, you have top pair, there's a draw on the board, no reason to think you don't have the best hand, so give your opponent something to call if he's drawing. If he's not drawing then that's fine, either way this is just a value bet.