Should AA and KK be slowplayed?

[frogbs]

I made a post like this in the STT forum, but this is a little different...

***** Hand History for Game 2906621983 *****
$25 NL Texas Hold'em - Monday, January 09, 14:48:42 EDT 2006
Table Table 36568 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: bluecoller1 ( $8.40 )
Seat 2: James_Fjong ( $27.30 )
Seat 3: Robert122944 ( $26.15 )
Seat 4: PokerTraina8 ( $23.75 )
Seat 5: aerohtao3iwj ( $22.95 )
Seat 6: Cromagnon_80 ( $22.15 )
Seat 7: LT_Wiberg ( $15.30 )
Seat 8: safta77 ( $23.95 )
Seat 10: gussebu ( $20.80 )
Seat 9: wagner1971 ( $9.75 )
Robert122944 posts small blind [$0.10].
PokerTraina8 posts big blind [$0.25].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to aerohtao3iwj [ Qc Qs ]
aerohtao3iwj raises [$1].
Cromagnon_80 folds.
LT_Wiberg folds.
safta77 calls [$1].
wagner1971 folds.
gussebu folds.
bluecoller1 folds.
James_Fjong calls [$1].
Robert122944 calls [$0.90].
PokerTraina8 folds.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 8c, 6c ]
Robert122944 checks.
aerohtao3iwj bets [$3].
safta77 raises [$6].
James_Fjong calls [$6].
Robert122944 folds.
aerohtao3iwj is all-In [$18.95]
safta77 is all-In [$16.95]
James_Fjong calls [$16.95].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5s ]
** Dealing River ** [ Ac ]
safta77 shows [ Kc, Kh ] a pair of kings.
James_Fjong shows [ As, Ah ] three of a kind, aces.
aerohtao3iwj doesn't show [ Qc, Qs ] a pair of queens.
James_Fjong wins $2 from side pot #1 with three of a kind, aces.
James_Fjong wins $67.10 from the main pot with three of a kind, aces.

Who played this worse? The raise to $6 made me think A8, the call made me think he was on a flush draw. Thoughts?????

[puckhead23]

I think Fjong (AA) played this worse. AA and KK should have tried to narrow the field by coming over the top of you, but Fjong is worse for this reason: AA is the best hand in holdem and breaks many hearts by losing to multi way action. Fjong was last to act, and had the position to come over the top of a raise and 2 callers. At the end of the day, he could have positioned himself for a heads-up vs. KK. Yes, he tripled up, but that doesn't mean he played it right.

In your position, I would have been worried about a set (88 and 66 are possibilities here). I don't know that I would have laid it down, but that's why I need a full time job to pay the bills.

[caffiend]

It's just one of those oddball hands that crop up sometimes. I think you could convincingly argue any number of actions were boneheaded by all three people. But, you aren't going to have a hand with three overpairs like that where someone doesn't go home crying.

Going all-in on the flop is pretty iffy after you've been raised and called cold. If you'd been correct and been up against A8 and the flush draw you're making things somewhat easy on the opposition. If safta calls it's a no brainer for Fjong to call with a quality draw in the back and two cards to come. If you wait and push on the turn it's a bit harder to call with either of those hands.

You can make the same argument with AA too. It's unlikely a reasonable reraise preflop will scare either of you off, so a call is justifiable if you're willing to bail out on a scary flop. With the bet and raise on the flop a set isn't out of the question so again you can flat call there and wait for the turn.

[frogbs]

Going all-in on the flop is pretty iffy after you've been raised and called cold. If you'd been correct and been up against A8 and the flush draw you're making things somewhat easy on the opposition. If safta calls it's a no brainer for Fjong to call with a quality draw in the back and two cards to come. If you wait and push on the turn it's a bit harder to call with either of those hands.

I really don't see the logic of waiting until the turn, as the hands I was scared of weren't going away and if Fjong's on a draw he's going to call anyway. The reason why I put the person on A8 is because a lot of people will play a hand like that to a raise here, and usually the min raise means something like "I can beat two high cards, but not an overpair...". Generally an overcall at a time like this means a draw, I honestly can't understand why they'd play AA or KK like this.

[caffiend]

When the action gets back to you on the flop there's roughly $19 in the pot. By going all-in for another rough $19 you're offering either opponent 2:1 on their call. (They need to pay $19 to win your $19 all-in plus the $19 in the pot) Worse, if the man who raised you calls, and he's likely to if he raised, the man you think is on a draw will have to pay $19 to win the bet, call, and pot so he'll be getting 3:1. Because you're all the same stack size anyone can call with impunity knowing they'll get to see two more cards as noone can bet the turn.

So, at 2:1 they'll need 9 live outs to call, or 7 live outs at 3:1. That's an easy call with a naked flush draw, let alone scary things like AKs or straight and flush draws. It's even callable with A8, as he has 6 outs if you have overcards and the best hand if you don't.

Let's suppose you call $3 and the turn's a brick. Now if you push you're giving about the same odds except there's only one card to come. Now they need 19 live outs at 2:1 or 12 at 3:1. It's now obviously incorrect to call with any naked straight or flush draw. A8 is looking bad too, because he still has 6 outs, but an extra bet to convince him you've got an overpair and not unimproved high cards.

Obviously both of them are going to call the turn with AA and KK. But the hands you were scared of would rather call the flop than a bad turn. By pushing on the flop you're not punishing them to draw, you're inviting them to. You get the maximum protection for your hand with a bet on a bad turn and not on the flop. (It would obviously be different if you were deep enough to be able to bet both streets big)

The guy with AA is in the same boat, he also has an overpair and about the size of the pot left. So it isn't surprising he'd call the flop and see what the turn brings, since he also risks inviting draws in by pushing. In fact, it's somewhat worse for him because of the raise in the middle. He'll probably give you AK or an overpair, but the man in the middle is representing a hand that can beat that, so he may have a set. Unfortunatly for his aces, if you have AA or AK you're really cramping his outs against 88. So the easy thing to do is call and see the turn cheap, then decide what you both have based on the turn betting.

[jjselle]

Obviously both of them are going to call the turn with AA and KK. But the hands you were scared of would rather call the flop than a bad turn. By pushing on the flop you're not punishing them to draw, you're inviting them to. You get the maximum protection for your hand with a bet on a bad turn and not on the flop. (It would obviously be different if you were deep enough to be able to bet both streets big)

Are you saying he shouldnt get his money in w/ what he thinks is the best hand? I agree hand protection is more effective on a blank turn, but the cardinal rule of NL is to get your chips in when you [think you] have the edge. Maybe that is more applicable to when hero has a set or 2 pair vs. TPTK/FD/SD as opposed to overpairs. This is a situation where I'm very prone to overplay. I'd like to hear some more rationale.