Shortstacked at level 5
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Shortstacked at level 5
by beezee » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:23 pm
shearer
Shortstacked at level 5
« on: Apr 18th, 2005, 10:50am »
Hi people,
I'm a relative SNG novice with a reasonable grasp of the game... I play $10/$20 SNGs pretty tight using MJ's starting hands which quite often gets me scraping my way into levels 4/5 with 300-800 chips if I don't get the cards.
This is where I often fail - I still want to play reasonably tight but you don't always get the hands..
There always seems to be an aggressive player or two (as I would be with a reasonable stack), so eventually it's a case of picking a hand to go all in on (I don't usually have enough to precipitate folds...)
Thing is at this point I would probably pick any Ace or King or pair to go in on, but quite often I am raised first and end up calling, feeling it's my only shot even though I fully expect to be up against a better hand (and usually am)
Sometimes I think I should keep it ultra tight and fold, even if I end up all in on my last 100 with a 10 and a 8, at least i'm not coming into a raised pot
Maybe I need to loosen up before level 5 so I'm either out or have a reasonable stack
What do you guys reckon the best strategies are when shortstacked at level 5?
Thanks
Leigh
Alanpsych
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #1 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 1:47pm »
Leigh, if you're folding all the way to until level 5, either you're getting the worst cards in history, or you're playing too tight. Level 3, (25/50 blinds with 800 starting chips on PP), presents some good steal opportunities, even though the SnG recipes still tell you to play tight until level 4. Also, remember that even the best players on this site get in the money less than 50% of the time. Sometimes it's just not meant to be.
Of course, it's easier, and better, to get comments on individual hands and situations than it is to get general comments. However, in answer to your general question, it's usually better to bet out with a bad hand than it is to call with a mediocre hand like KT, for example.
You need to have a good feel for what's going on at the table, too. In a typical $11 SnG, there is usually a flurry of insane activity at the beginning, with players tightening up as the blinds increase. It's when the players with big stacks are protecting their booty, and the shorter stacks are praying for a monster hand to help them survive, that you will get some of these opportunities. Sometimes, folding AQ is a correct play, and other times going all in with T2 is correct. Just depends on the situation. I'd rather go all in from the button with T2 than call a raise and re-raise with AQ.
Good luck.
Biggle10
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #2 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 5:02pm »
on Apr 18th, 2005, 10:50am, shearer wrote:
(I don't usually have enough to precipitate folds...)
You're waiting too long. Personally, I'd rather take my shot with two random cards with a mid-small stack than wait til I'm an itty bitty stack where it's easy for people to call me. I forget the exact numbers (and I'm too lazy to look them up), but if I recall correctly, you have a better chance to double up once with two crap cards i.e. 57o then winning multiple times in a row with AK if for example the BB has the odds to call you with any two cards. People get really mad at me when my 57o beats their AK and puts a decent dent into their stack.
When there's 4-5 people left that's the best time to start moving, as people are trying to slide into the money. You bust out at 4th and 5th more often (when you run into bigger hands), but you also get 1st more often.
MJ
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #3 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 6:08pm »
Be selectively aggressive and use your position and your read on your opponents to make well timed steals. You want to minimize the risk of your steal so that you have the least chance of being caught. If you simply don't get the cards, you'll just have to work with what you have and when you see an opportunity, even if it's a little sketchy, just go with it.
The worst thing you can do is call off all your chips unless you're severely short-stacked or have indeed a good hand. The thing is that even if you hold a hand like AK and someone steals with QJ and you call, they're not that far behind to catch you (about 40% of the time). Now if you steal with 72o and are only called 30% of the time, you're already doing better than if you had called with the better hand. Not to mention, 72o still has value if called by your opponent.
So, the deal is to pick those guys apart without getting involved if at all possible. While playing tight is a virtue, you still cannot win chips if you don't risk any. If you have the bankroll, make it a point for at least a few games to either bust out in level 4 or double-up. It's not going to be great +EV, but you need to force yourself to play outside your regular box.
Lastly, you often times won't get the hands. But the thing to remember is that anyone can play a winning poker hand. A winning player knows how to play the 'losing' hands as well.
Biggle10
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #4 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 6:14pm »
Other thing I think should be added. If you don't occasionally get caught bluffing, you're not bluffing enough.
shearer
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #5 on: Apr 19th, 2005, 1:15am »
thanks
alanpsych seems to be saying all in steals with random cards (because he says you might double-up)
i would normally just try to steal with 3-4BB - perhaps that's not enough at 25-50?
trouble is, i guess, if you're called you have to play your hand - you probably have to bet another 2-3BB at least to get fold equity on the flop (depending on the cards of course). i suppose you have position at least
i suppose the trouble i have with going all in on a steal at that level is the risk/reward ratio - i.e. stealing against the blinds means risking say 700 for a pot of 75
i just remembered there is an article somewhere on raising in the SB - maybe i should look it up again Smiley
Alanpsych
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #6 on: Apr 19th, 2005, 8:28am »
Yes, MJ's famous blind-stealing article on this site. Considered holy writ around these parts, and for good reason. As a rule of thumb, if you're down to 10xBB or less, you might as well go all in rather than just make the normal raise, since 1) you're pot commited anyway, 2) you have better fold equity. It also takes away the possibility of an opponent trying to bluff you with a re-raise, and doesn't allow an opponent a cheap way to see if he hits his flop first. But read the article...
R_Brite_TDX
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #7 on: Apr 19th, 2005, 10:50am »
I think you have to be waiting til the blinds are 50-100 before you really start stealing. Maybe on Party it would be ok to steal at the 25-50 level but on sites with higher starting chips I think the 50-100 level is a great time to start.
To reitterate a little on what MJ was saying: All of the hands you are dealt have multiple ways to play them depending on the situation you are in. He was explaining how it is sometimes correct to fold AJ, yeah even when you are under 10xbb. This situation occurs when the opponents acting in front of you are showing strength. Other times it is ok to push with any two cards simply because your opponents are showing weakness by either folding to you when you are in late position or only limping in late position when you are on the button. your hand is only as strong as the decisions the other players have made in front of you.
Another factor you will want to consider is the stacks of the other opponents at the table. How are they going to perceive your raise and what action would they likely take on it. If you are thinking of pushing into another player...step back and think for a second...if he was pushing into your current hand, what would your decision be...to determine this you would have to analyze a few things and by analyzing these yourself you can help better determine what your opponent may be thinking when you push on him.
a. What is the strength of my hand against a lone opponent
b. What hands does my opponent get aggressive with
c. What is my chip stack in relation to the rest of the players
d. What are the blinds in relation to my chip stack
e. (If im real low stacked) Do I have a chance at sliding into the money if I let this go or am I pot comitted
I think these are some common questions that have to be answered before moving into another player and/or calling another players move. I have thrown away some pretty strong hands before when I was shortstacked simply because other players at the table were more prone to going out before me. Chip stack in relation to other players is very key and like everyone else said a good rule of thumb is to try and have enough chips so that you can win pots two ways, either by your opponent folding or your hand winning outright. (Fold Equity) Remember it takes a substantially stronger hand to call in allin then to make an all in play.
Lastly, to prove this strategy works: Have you ever been in bubble situation and watched someone play a very good (I emphasize good because I am not talking maniacal) aggressive bubble play. He may get you to throw away some premium hands simply because you dont want to risk it. I remember myself being in these situations and just thinking "gosh he is making this tough" This is what your players will be thinking of your play if you can use smart, well-timed, aggression.
Shortstacked at level 5
« on: Apr 18th, 2005, 10:50am »
Hi people,
I'm a relative SNG novice with a reasonable grasp of the game... I play $10/$20 SNGs pretty tight using MJ's starting hands which quite often gets me scraping my way into levels 4/5 with 300-800 chips if I don't get the cards.
This is where I often fail - I still want to play reasonably tight but you don't always get the hands..
There always seems to be an aggressive player or two (as I would be with a reasonable stack), so eventually it's a case of picking a hand to go all in on (I don't usually have enough to precipitate folds...)
Thing is at this point I would probably pick any Ace or King or pair to go in on, but quite often I am raised first and end up calling, feeling it's my only shot even though I fully expect to be up against a better hand (and usually am)
Sometimes I think I should keep it ultra tight and fold, even if I end up all in on my last 100 with a 10 and a 8, at least i'm not coming into a raised pot
Maybe I need to loosen up before level 5 so I'm either out or have a reasonable stack
What do you guys reckon the best strategies are when shortstacked at level 5?
Thanks
Leigh
Alanpsych
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #1 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 1:47pm »
Leigh, if you're folding all the way to until level 5, either you're getting the worst cards in history, or you're playing too tight. Level 3, (25/50 blinds with 800 starting chips on PP), presents some good steal opportunities, even though the SnG recipes still tell you to play tight until level 4. Also, remember that even the best players on this site get in the money less than 50% of the time. Sometimes it's just not meant to be.
Of course, it's easier, and better, to get comments on individual hands and situations than it is to get general comments. However, in answer to your general question, it's usually better to bet out with a bad hand than it is to call with a mediocre hand like KT, for example.
You need to have a good feel for what's going on at the table, too. In a typical $11 SnG, there is usually a flurry of insane activity at the beginning, with players tightening up as the blinds increase. It's when the players with big stacks are protecting their booty, and the shorter stacks are praying for a monster hand to help them survive, that you will get some of these opportunities. Sometimes, folding AQ is a correct play, and other times going all in with T2 is correct. Just depends on the situation. I'd rather go all in from the button with T2 than call a raise and re-raise with AQ.
Good luck.
Biggle10
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #2 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 5:02pm »
on Apr 18th, 2005, 10:50am, shearer wrote:
(I don't usually have enough to precipitate folds...)
You're waiting too long. Personally, I'd rather take my shot with two random cards with a mid-small stack than wait til I'm an itty bitty stack where it's easy for people to call me. I forget the exact numbers (and I'm too lazy to look them up), but if I recall correctly, you have a better chance to double up once with two crap cards i.e. 57o then winning multiple times in a row with AK if for example the BB has the odds to call you with any two cards. People get really mad at me when my 57o beats their AK and puts a decent dent into their stack.
When there's 4-5 people left that's the best time to start moving, as people are trying to slide into the money. You bust out at 4th and 5th more often (when you run into bigger hands), but you also get 1st more often.
MJ
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #3 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 6:08pm »
Be selectively aggressive and use your position and your read on your opponents to make well timed steals. You want to minimize the risk of your steal so that you have the least chance of being caught. If you simply don't get the cards, you'll just have to work with what you have and when you see an opportunity, even if it's a little sketchy, just go with it.
The worst thing you can do is call off all your chips unless you're severely short-stacked or have indeed a good hand. The thing is that even if you hold a hand like AK and someone steals with QJ and you call, they're not that far behind to catch you (about 40% of the time). Now if you steal with 72o and are only called 30% of the time, you're already doing better than if you had called with the better hand. Not to mention, 72o still has value if called by your opponent.
So, the deal is to pick those guys apart without getting involved if at all possible. While playing tight is a virtue, you still cannot win chips if you don't risk any. If you have the bankroll, make it a point for at least a few games to either bust out in level 4 or double-up. It's not going to be great +EV, but you need to force yourself to play outside your regular box.
Lastly, you often times won't get the hands. But the thing to remember is that anyone can play a winning poker hand. A winning player knows how to play the 'losing' hands as well.
Biggle10
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #4 on: Apr 18th, 2005, 6:14pm »
Other thing I think should be added. If you don't occasionally get caught bluffing, you're not bluffing enough.
shearer
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #5 on: Apr 19th, 2005, 1:15am »
thanks
alanpsych seems to be saying all in steals with random cards (because he says you might double-up)
i would normally just try to steal with 3-4BB - perhaps that's not enough at 25-50?
trouble is, i guess, if you're called you have to play your hand - you probably have to bet another 2-3BB at least to get fold equity on the flop (depending on the cards of course). i suppose you have position at least
i suppose the trouble i have with going all in on a steal at that level is the risk/reward ratio - i.e. stealing against the blinds means risking say 700 for a pot of 75
i just remembered there is an article somewhere on raising in the SB - maybe i should look it up again Smiley
Alanpsych
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #6 on: Apr 19th, 2005, 8:28am »
Yes, MJ's famous blind-stealing article on this site. Considered holy writ around these parts, and for good reason. As a rule of thumb, if you're down to 10xBB or less, you might as well go all in rather than just make the normal raise, since 1) you're pot commited anyway, 2) you have better fold equity. It also takes away the possibility of an opponent trying to bluff you with a re-raise, and doesn't allow an opponent a cheap way to see if he hits his flop first. But read the article...
R_Brite_TDX
Re: Shortstacked at level 5
« Reply #7 on: Apr 19th, 2005, 10:50am »
I think you have to be waiting til the blinds are 50-100 before you really start stealing. Maybe on Party it would be ok to steal at the 25-50 level but on sites with higher starting chips I think the 50-100 level is a great time to start.
To reitterate a little on what MJ was saying: All of the hands you are dealt have multiple ways to play them depending on the situation you are in. He was explaining how it is sometimes correct to fold AJ, yeah even when you are under 10xbb. This situation occurs when the opponents acting in front of you are showing strength. Other times it is ok to push with any two cards simply because your opponents are showing weakness by either folding to you when you are in late position or only limping in late position when you are on the button. your hand is only as strong as the decisions the other players have made in front of you.
Another factor you will want to consider is the stacks of the other opponents at the table. How are they going to perceive your raise and what action would they likely take on it. If you are thinking of pushing into another player...step back and think for a second...if he was pushing into your current hand, what would your decision be...to determine this you would have to analyze a few things and by analyzing these yourself you can help better determine what your opponent may be thinking when you push on him.
a. What is the strength of my hand against a lone opponent
b. What hands does my opponent get aggressive with
c. What is my chip stack in relation to the rest of the players
d. What are the blinds in relation to my chip stack
e. (If im real low stacked) Do I have a chance at sliding into the money if I let this go or am I pot comitted
I think these are some common questions that have to be answered before moving into another player and/or calling another players move. I have thrown away some pretty strong hands before when I was shortstacked simply because other players at the table were more prone to going out before me. Chip stack in relation to other players is very key and like everyone else said a good rule of thumb is to try and have enough chips so that you can win pots two ways, either by your opponent folding or your hand winning outright. (Fold Equity) Remember it takes a substantially stronger hand to call in allin then to make an all in play.
Lastly, to prove this strategy works: Have you ever been in bubble situation and watched someone play a very good (I emphasize good because I am not talking maniacal) aggressive bubble play. He may get you to throw away some premium hands simply because you dont want to risk it. I remember myself being in these situations and just thinking "gosh he is making this tough" This is what your players will be thinking of your play if you can use smart, well-timed, aggression.
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