Short Stack, Late Game Survival
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Short Stack, Late Game Survival
by beezee » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:17 pm
levistep
Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« on: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:06pm »
Here is the situation...
-Blinds Level 8- 250/500
-4 people left
-1000 chip stack
-in the sb (so only 750 chip stack)
Do you push with anything from the sb, if you know the bb is gonna call. Do you fold, and hope for something better? I had q,4 in the sb and I just pushed.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:07pm by levistep »
JP
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #1 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:24pm »
If I'm in that exact position, I'm pretty sure I'm pushing, hoping that I have two live cards.
What are the other stacks like?
Also, that is a pretty bad spot to be in, and if I was short stacked for some time before this, I probably would have pushed sooner. Did you get to this point hoping to slide ITM, or did you get knocked down to that during the last hand or two?
heids
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #2 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:37pm »
I'm with JP and agree with your decision - I'm pushing against a random hand here and hope for the best. The only way I fold it is if there's an extremely short stack that will be forced all-in by the blinds in the next hand or two.
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #3 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 1:48pm »
I moved all-in the previous hand with aa, and this guy called with k,5. He rivered the flush, and I lost most of my chips.
I never try to "slide" ITM, but sometimes you just don't get the cards, and the you know the players will call anything, so you just can't bluff and sometimes you can get dragged into a situation like this.
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #4 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:17pm »
If the player in the BB has anything less than you and calls, it is a HORRIBLY -EV play by him. He may take your chips this time, but in the long run, he will lose.
On your side, you have 2BB. In this situation...
If the big blind is a chip leader, and there are other short stacks, fold; you will almost certainly be called, and probably knocked out.
If big blind has a decent stack... 2000 or so, you push this all day; Especially if there is a short stack, because the short stack greatly increases your fold equity. Shoot for first, not third.
The situation you describe seems pretty hopeless, but your description does not include enough information for anyone to make a solid recommendation.
heids
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #5 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:24pm »
Don't agree with you here faq.
This is an auto call for the BB since it's one more BB to cover, which means he's getting 3 to 1 on his money. Doesn't matter what his hand is, the correct play for the BB here is that he should be calling.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:25pm by heids »
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #6 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:31pm »
My line of thinking is this; (I am challenging the importance of pot odds late in a tournament).
Let's say BB has 1250 after posting. He has 10-3o. Is getting lucky and CALLING for your tournament life (he would be crippled at 500 chips) a better play than waiting 1 more hand and pushing any 2 to steal those blinds back?
I agree that my example sucked, but do you see where I am going? I do see thast you are assuming you have 2 live cards, and if you hit, you will have gotten a nice pot for the investment. But yeah, is it worth it with such a shitass hand? Maybe an ICM calculation would prove useful?
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:34pm by faquewdikhed »
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #7 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:39pm »
Let me add 3 more details.
-There was no limpers
-I was the shortest stack by about 500 chips
-the BB (the person i was raising) had about 4k chips, so I knew he was gonna call
Btw, I had another semi-similar situation (a new game). I was shortstacked again after not getting any cards the whole game (the best hand I got was a,7- not a single pair). It was level 4 (50/100 blinds) and I only had 480 chips, and I was in mid position. The loosest player at the table calls the big blind, and I move all-in for my 480 with a,j. He flips over k,3s and beats me.
Should I have tried to force a situation early to double up, or just fold (like I did) if I keep getting trashy cards. There was one situation where I could have tried a play, but it would have been risky. I was the sb, and it was folded to the dealer who min raised (the dealer was the loosest player). I had a,2 and I had like 540 chips after pairing the sb. Should I have moved all-in, or wait for a better hand?
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:45pm by levistep »
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #8 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:43pm »
Good post levi, this is a tough one.
As far as BB goes, he has to, will, and probably did, call.
I think with all the money in the pot, you have to go in with any 2 also.
Just curious... You said you moved all in with AA the hand before, and he called with K5. In the situation you describe, that would make him UTG, and you BB. Am I correct in assuming that he limped UTG, everyone else folded, and you went all in?
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #9 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:48pm »
on Jun 8th, 2005, 2:43pm, faquewdikhed wrote:
Good post levi, this is a tough one.
As far as BB goes, he has to, will, and probably did, call.
I think with all the money in the pot, you have to go in with any 2 also.
Just curious... You said you moved all in with AA the hand before, and he called with K5. In the situation you describe, that would make him UTG, and you BB. Am I correct in assuming that he limped UTG, everyone else folded, and you went all in?
I think it was actually 3 hands ago, or however many hands ago since I was the button. The BB (a different player) called my all-in with k,5.
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #10 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:49pm »
Here is the log...
#Game No : 2175153781
***** Hand History for Game 2175153781 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:12916729 Level:8 Blinds(250/500) - Wednesday, June 08, 13:56:34 EDT 2005
Table Table 14460 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: TrojanMan00 ( $2870 )
Seat 1: levistep ( $1080 )
Seat 9: p73ek ( $1550 )
Seat 8: eatit16 ( $2500 )
Trny:12916729 Level:8
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to levistep [ Qh 4c ]
idiotjavel: =)
eatit16 folds.
p73ek folds.
levistep is all-In [830]
TrojanMan00 calls [580].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, Ac, 5d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]
levistep shows [ Qh, 4c ] a pair of aces.
TrojanMan00 shows [ Qd, Kd ] a flush, ace high.
TrojanMan00 wins 2160 chips from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
levistep finished in fourth place.
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #11 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:54pm »
Not a whole lot you can do there...
Between the Big blind folding, and you sucking out with live cards, I'd say you win that situation greater than 60% of the time.
Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« on: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:06pm »
Here is the situation...
-Blinds Level 8- 250/500
-4 people left
-1000 chip stack
-in the sb (so only 750 chip stack)
Do you push with anything from the sb, if you know the bb is gonna call. Do you fold, and hope for something better? I had q,4 in the sb and I just pushed.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:07pm by levistep »
JP
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #1 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:24pm »
If I'm in that exact position, I'm pretty sure I'm pushing, hoping that I have two live cards.
What are the other stacks like?
Also, that is a pretty bad spot to be in, and if I was short stacked for some time before this, I probably would have pushed sooner. Did you get to this point hoping to slide ITM, or did you get knocked down to that during the last hand or two?
heids
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #2 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 12:37pm »
I'm with JP and agree with your decision - I'm pushing against a random hand here and hope for the best. The only way I fold it is if there's an extremely short stack that will be forced all-in by the blinds in the next hand or two.
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #3 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 1:48pm »
I moved all-in the previous hand with aa, and this guy called with k,5. He rivered the flush, and I lost most of my chips.
I never try to "slide" ITM, but sometimes you just don't get the cards, and the you know the players will call anything, so you just can't bluff and sometimes you can get dragged into a situation like this.
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #4 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:17pm »
If the player in the BB has anything less than you and calls, it is a HORRIBLY -EV play by him. He may take your chips this time, but in the long run, he will lose.
On your side, you have 2BB. In this situation...
If the big blind is a chip leader, and there are other short stacks, fold; you will almost certainly be called, and probably knocked out.
If big blind has a decent stack... 2000 or so, you push this all day; Especially if there is a short stack, because the short stack greatly increases your fold equity. Shoot for first, not third.
The situation you describe seems pretty hopeless, but your description does not include enough information for anyone to make a solid recommendation.
heids
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #5 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:24pm »
Don't agree with you here faq.
This is an auto call for the BB since it's one more BB to cover, which means he's getting 3 to 1 on his money. Doesn't matter what his hand is, the correct play for the BB here is that he should be calling.
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:25pm by heids »
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #6 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:31pm »
My line of thinking is this; (I am challenging the importance of pot odds late in a tournament).
Let's say BB has 1250 after posting. He has 10-3o. Is getting lucky and CALLING for your tournament life (he would be crippled at 500 chips) a better play than waiting 1 more hand and pushing any 2 to steal those blinds back?
I agree that my example sucked, but do you see where I am going? I do see thast you are assuming you have 2 live cards, and if you hit, you will have gotten a nice pot for the investment. But yeah, is it worth it with such a shitass hand? Maybe an ICM calculation would prove useful?
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:34pm by faquewdikhed »
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #7 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:39pm »
Let me add 3 more details.
-There was no limpers
-I was the shortest stack by about 500 chips
-the BB (the person i was raising) had about 4k chips, so I knew he was gonna call
Btw, I had another semi-similar situation (a new game). I was shortstacked again after not getting any cards the whole game (the best hand I got was a,7- not a single pair). It was level 4 (50/100 blinds) and I only had 480 chips, and I was in mid position. The loosest player at the table calls the big blind, and I move all-in for my 480 with a,j. He flips over k,3s and beats me.
Should I have tried to force a situation early to double up, or just fold (like I did) if I keep getting trashy cards. There was one situation where I could have tried a play, but it would have been risky. I was the sb, and it was folded to the dealer who min raised (the dealer was the loosest player). I had a,2 and I had like 540 chips after pairing the sb. Should I have moved all-in, or wait for a better hand?
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:45pm by levistep »
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #8 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:43pm »
Good post levi, this is a tough one.
As far as BB goes, he has to, will, and probably did, call.
I think with all the money in the pot, you have to go in with any 2 also.
Just curious... You said you moved all in with AA the hand before, and he called with K5. In the situation you describe, that would make him UTG, and you BB. Am I correct in assuming that he limped UTG, everyone else folded, and you went all in?
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #9 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:48pm »
on Jun 8th, 2005, 2:43pm, faquewdikhed wrote:
Good post levi, this is a tough one.
As far as BB goes, he has to, will, and probably did, call.
I think with all the money in the pot, you have to go in with any 2 also.
Just curious... You said you moved all in with AA the hand before, and he called with K5. In the situation you describe, that would make him UTG, and you BB. Am I correct in assuming that he limped UTG, everyone else folded, and you went all in?
I think it was actually 3 hands ago, or however many hands ago since I was the button. The BB (a different player) called my all-in with k,5.
levistep
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #10 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:49pm »
Here is the log...
#Game No : 2175153781
***** Hand History for Game 2175153781 *****
NL Hold'em $20 Buy-in + $2 Entry Fee Trny:12916729 Level:8 Blinds(250/500) - Wednesday, June 08, 13:56:34 EDT 2005
Table Table 14460 (Real Money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 4
Seat 6: TrojanMan00 ( $2870 )
Seat 1: levistep ( $1080 )
Seat 9: p73ek ( $1550 )
Seat 8: eatit16 ( $2500 )
Trny:12916729 Level:8
Blinds(250/500)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to levistep [ Qh 4c ]
idiotjavel: =)
eatit16 folds.
p73ek folds.
levistep is all-In [830]
TrojanMan00 calls [580].
** Dealing Flop ** [ Ad, Ac, 5d ]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Tc ]
** Dealing River ** [ 8d ]
levistep shows [ Qh, 4c ] a pair of aces.
TrojanMan00 shows [ Qd, Kd ] a flush, ace high.
TrojanMan00 wins 2160 chips from the main pot with a flush, ace high.
levistep finished in fourth place.
faquewdikhed
Re: Short Stack, Late Game Survival
« Reply #11 on: Jun 8th, 2005, 2:54pm »
Not a whole lot you can do there...
Between the Big blind folding, and you sucking out with live cards, I'd say you win that situation greater than 60% of the time.
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beezee - Grinder
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