SB vs BB confrontations in limit
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SB vs BB confrontations in limit
by beezee » Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:14 pm
goofyballer
SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« on: Oct 25th, 2005, 5:12am »
So, you're in the SB, everyone folds to you, and you have a kinda marginal hand like 87o. Do you just give up and fold? Limp? Steal-raise? Okay, so then you're called and you miss a flop of K-9-2. Bet? Check-fold? Check-raise and bet the turn to represent a monster?
Or...rather than go through every possible thing that might happen, what's good strategy in general when these confrontations happen, both from the SB and BB perspective? Being read-dependent doesn't really work, because in most low limit games these types of situations come up so infrequently that the few times they do, you'll have no heads up reads on the other player to go on. This is probably one of the worst aspects of my game, and I feel like I get killed when these situations appear.
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2005, 5:13am by goofyballer »
caffiend
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #1 on: Oct 25th, 2005, 8:51am »
I almost always fold. If I'm going to steal the blinds I want to have a shot at both of them, not just the big one. Besides which, in the micro limits people are calling a steal from the small blind about 70% of the time, and folding to a steal from the cutoff or button about 70% of the time. I have no idea why, but it's more credible to them when you aren't the blind.
Getting killed is relatively common though, since most people will defend the blinds to absurd lengths. It's not uncommon to raise, bet, bet, bet and then have the doofus fold on the river when he doesn't pair his face card. On the other hand, I can't count the number of times I've been whacked by someone completing a gutshot straight draw on the river, and that isn't exactly a good draw heads up.
K92 I'm probably check/folding. It's easy to give him a king if he called a raise, and a nine isn't out of the question. If it was a better flop like K62 then I'd bet it looking for the king, and decide how to go from there. I wouldn't press too hard though, since you're almost certainly high carded. I'd only keep betting on the turn if I picked up more outs, and I'd almost definately fold to a raise after the flop.
goofyballer
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #2 on: Oct 25th, 2005, 3:26pm »
on Oct 25th, 2005, 8:51am, caffiend wrote:
If I'm going to steal the blinds I want to have a shot at both of them, not just the big one.
You do have a shot at both of them from the SB; if anything, the SB is a better position to steal from (except for postflop position). If you try to steal from the button, you're putting in $4 to win $3; if you're stealing from the SB, you're putting in $3 to win $3 (remember, once you put out the $1 SB, it's not your money anymore; there's $3 in blinds to be stolen regardless of where you are).
Biggle10
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #3 on: Oct 25th, 2005, 4:11pm »
Just be aware that blind structure makes a difference. 3-1 (at 3/6) and 2-1 (at 2/4). I fold it at 3/6. I think player dependent at 2/4.
Blind battes happen more than you think. My personal feeling is that this is a fold or raise spot.
scottie_g.
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #4 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 1:22am »
At 2/4 I might raise to steal if I think the guy will fold, or I will just fold it right there. If I raise and get called and the flop misses me, I'm check-folding. No sense in getting fancy at 2/4 games... I've tried it, it just doesn't work.
goofyballer
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #5 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 4:39am »
Does anyone successfully play an aggressive strategy in these situations? Usually I get my ass kicked because I'm getting run over with aggression. If I have good high cards and raise and they miss, the idiot will raise me with nothing every time, and I'll fold every time because it's a small pot that isn't worth 2BB to see a showdown in. I'll usually get forced off middle pair as well (I'll bet at it, but fold to raises after the flop), won't chase down draws, basically leaving me with top pair or better to contend with, which won't happen that often. I'm having a hard time figuring out a specific filter in PT for these situations. The only one I could think of is hands where exactly 2 players saw the flop and I was in either blind; this has happened 585 times in 8,500 hands of $2/$4 I've played at PokerRoom. I lose 0.19 BB per hand in those hands...that's a very bad sign.
MJ
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #6 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 10:37am »
Yeah, I'm a usually very hyper in the SB/BB situation. I view it as a heads-up game, independent of the rest of the table on it's own session. In a full ring game, the BB is much more apt to defend when he realizes you're being aggressive, but it still doesn't mean you can't stick it to him. You just have to be more aggressive than him and value bet/raise him big time when you get the chance.
Usually, like in a heads-up game, I'll decide to take the lead by being hyper until I go to a showdown. This has two uses:
1) Being hyper will often force your opponent to simply fold or dump his hand. Given that he'll be unsure of your exact status for some time, he'll be more apt to give up some hands before standing up and fighting.
2) If and when you get caught, he'll realize exactly how hyper you are and will NOT fold his marginal hand when you make your hand the next time around and pay you off.
I think advocating any kind of fold strategy in the SB is pretty weak period. Your hand strength vs his hand strength is going to 50/50 long term. You've got 1.5 small bets in the pot and it takes 1.5 small bets to raise, forcing an action on him - or 1:1 money to put your opponent in a fold/call/raise decision. Even if your opponent defends 70% of the time, that means he's losing 30% of his value.
Of course, if he only defends 50% of the time, those hands he has coming at you on the flop and pre-flop are often going to be stronger than yours, but not 50% stronger than yours on average. In these spots, you just learn which hands to get away from and which types to attack. If he defends a little, then you should be worried about Aces and faces on the flop and go blitzing with a low flop. If he defends a lot, then you might go ahead and give him a swift kick in the balls when an Ace comes up on the table or something if he's tight enough to respect it. Any open or flush draw, those should be played aggressive.
The big trick of SB vs BB however vs heads-up, is that you are always out of position in the SB/BB matchup, which makes life harder on the flop, since your opponent will often raise from his position to see where he is at. This means you need to be sure to vary your game up from pure attack to a lot of trapping with check-raises as well. IE, the naked Ace jam to the river, instead of betting the flop, betting the turn, getting raised and then dumping your hand, bet the flop, check-raise the turn and then option to complete the river against a serious defender.
My suggestion is to just play a lot of heads-up games and work on being comfortable feeling someone out with bets and being comfortable three betting with mid or bottom pair.
scottie_g.
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #7 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 12:01pm »
Quote:
Usually, like in a heads-up game, I'll decide to take the lead by being hyper until I go to a showdown. This has two uses:
1) Being hyper will often force your opponent to simply fold or dump his hand. Given that he'll be unsure of your exact status for some time, he'll be more apt to give up some hands before standing up and fighting.
2) If and when you get caught, he'll realize exactly how hyper you are and will NOT fold his marginal hand when you make your hand the next time around and pay you off.
MJ, while I realize that you are the man, and are much better at cards than I am, do you really think the Hyper-aggressive strategy is best in a 2/4 game? I completely agree with you at 5/10 or above, maybe even 8/16 and above. In a 2/4 game though, I think it's tougher to bluff people and get them to fold.
And, you say you are raising in this spot no matter what? Even with complete rags?
Also, your 2nd point may not work because I don't know if the person will be smart enough to notice that you are being this aggressive, or even care.
« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2005, 12:50pm by scottie_g. »
Biggle10
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #8 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 4:45pm »
on Oct 26th, 2005, 4:39am, goofyballer wrote:
I lose 0.19 BB per hand in those hands...that's a very bad sign.
Not necessarily. If you folded every time, then you'd be losing 0.25BB per hand.
MJ
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #9 on: Oct 27th, 2005, 1:01am »
on Oct 26th, 2005, 12:01pm, scottie_g. wrote:
do you really think the Hyper-aggressive strategy is best in a 2/4 game?
Well, hyper is how your first few encounters should be, but not your entire strategy once you've been caught. Even at the 2/4 game, you should have a read on your opponent and figure out what type of player they are. If they're extremely loose, then of couse a hyper strategy probably won't even work the first time. If they're tight, then any two rags work.
It's a very heads-up mentality, where you can never use absolutes to dictate the situation. Every single play is 'it depends'. So, you're correct in that a 100% hyper game is not correct, but hopefully that's not what I came across as advocating earlier.
Quote:
Also, your 2nd point may not work because I don't know if the person will be smart enough to notice that you are being this aggressive, or even care.
Actually, most people remember with astute clarity how often someone attacks their blinds. If you don't believe me, raise someone's blind three times in a row and they will almost certainly call, raise or start screaming in chat. They remember how aggressive you play and will want to get back at you if you're irritating them. Tilt does wonders to your opponent.
MJ
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #10 on: Oct 27th, 2005, 1:05am »
on Oct 26th, 2005, 12:01pm, scottie_g. wrote:
And, you say you are raising in this spot no matter what? Even with complete rags?
Forgot this point. But in a heads-up game, you pretty much want to play all of your hands with the exception of true junk. This doesn't mean you have to raise either, because you would never raise every single hand in a heads-up game, but until your opponent catches on or grows a pair, you might as well try.
Eruu
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #11 on: Oct 27th, 2005, 8:09pm »
I have had some success at just calling from the SB and then betting any flop from this situation. Then your opponent will think that you hit the flop and drop out. I usually feel more confident in folding if I get reraised here too.
And if you happen to be playing against MJ then go find another table.
SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« on: Oct 25th, 2005, 5:12am »
So, you're in the SB, everyone folds to you, and you have a kinda marginal hand like 87o. Do you just give up and fold? Limp? Steal-raise? Okay, so then you're called and you miss a flop of K-9-2. Bet? Check-fold? Check-raise and bet the turn to represent a monster?
Or...rather than go through every possible thing that might happen, what's good strategy in general when these confrontations happen, both from the SB and BB perspective? Being read-dependent doesn't really work, because in most low limit games these types of situations come up so infrequently that the few times they do, you'll have no heads up reads on the other player to go on. This is probably one of the worst aspects of my game, and I feel like I get killed when these situations appear.
« Last Edit: Oct 25th, 2005, 5:13am by goofyballer »
caffiend
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #1 on: Oct 25th, 2005, 8:51am »
I almost always fold. If I'm going to steal the blinds I want to have a shot at both of them, not just the big one. Besides which, in the micro limits people are calling a steal from the small blind about 70% of the time, and folding to a steal from the cutoff or button about 70% of the time. I have no idea why, but it's more credible to them when you aren't the blind.
Getting killed is relatively common though, since most people will defend the blinds to absurd lengths. It's not uncommon to raise, bet, bet, bet and then have the doofus fold on the river when he doesn't pair his face card. On the other hand, I can't count the number of times I've been whacked by someone completing a gutshot straight draw on the river, and that isn't exactly a good draw heads up.
K92 I'm probably check/folding. It's easy to give him a king if he called a raise, and a nine isn't out of the question. If it was a better flop like K62 then I'd bet it looking for the king, and decide how to go from there. I wouldn't press too hard though, since you're almost certainly high carded. I'd only keep betting on the turn if I picked up more outs, and I'd almost definately fold to a raise after the flop.
goofyballer
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #2 on: Oct 25th, 2005, 3:26pm »
on Oct 25th, 2005, 8:51am, caffiend wrote:
If I'm going to steal the blinds I want to have a shot at both of them, not just the big one.
You do have a shot at both of them from the SB; if anything, the SB is a better position to steal from (except for postflop position). If you try to steal from the button, you're putting in $4 to win $3; if you're stealing from the SB, you're putting in $3 to win $3 (remember, once you put out the $1 SB, it's not your money anymore; there's $3 in blinds to be stolen regardless of where you are).
Biggle10
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #3 on: Oct 25th, 2005, 4:11pm »
Just be aware that blind structure makes a difference. 3-1 (at 3/6) and 2-1 (at 2/4). I fold it at 3/6. I think player dependent at 2/4.
Blind battes happen more than you think. My personal feeling is that this is a fold or raise spot.
scottie_g.
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #4 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 1:22am »
At 2/4 I might raise to steal if I think the guy will fold, or I will just fold it right there. If I raise and get called and the flop misses me, I'm check-folding. No sense in getting fancy at 2/4 games... I've tried it, it just doesn't work.
goofyballer
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #5 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 4:39am »
Does anyone successfully play an aggressive strategy in these situations? Usually I get my ass kicked because I'm getting run over with aggression. If I have good high cards and raise and they miss, the idiot will raise me with nothing every time, and I'll fold every time because it's a small pot that isn't worth 2BB to see a showdown in. I'll usually get forced off middle pair as well (I'll bet at it, but fold to raises after the flop), won't chase down draws, basically leaving me with top pair or better to contend with, which won't happen that often. I'm having a hard time figuring out a specific filter in PT for these situations. The only one I could think of is hands where exactly 2 players saw the flop and I was in either blind; this has happened 585 times in 8,500 hands of $2/$4 I've played at PokerRoom. I lose 0.19 BB per hand in those hands...that's a very bad sign.
MJ
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #6 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 10:37am »
Yeah, I'm a usually very hyper in the SB/BB situation. I view it as a heads-up game, independent of the rest of the table on it's own session. In a full ring game, the BB is much more apt to defend when he realizes you're being aggressive, but it still doesn't mean you can't stick it to him. You just have to be more aggressive than him and value bet/raise him big time when you get the chance.
Usually, like in a heads-up game, I'll decide to take the lead by being hyper until I go to a showdown. This has two uses:
1) Being hyper will often force your opponent to simply fold or dump his hand. Given that he'll be unsure of your exact status for some time, he'll be more apt to give up some hands before standing up and fighting.
2) If and when you get caught, he'll realize exactly how hyper you are and will NOT fold his marginal hand when you make your hand the next time around and pay you off.
I think advocating any kind of fold strategy in the SB is pretty weak period. Your hand strength vs his hand strength is going to 50/50 long term. You've got 1.5 small bets in the pot and it takes 1.5 small bets to raise, forcing an action on him - or 1:1 money to put your opponent in a fold/call/raise decision. Even if your opponent defends 70% of the time, that means he's losing 30% of his value.
Of course, if he only defends 50% of the time, those hands he has coming at you on the flop and pre-flop are often going to be stronger than yours, but not 50% stronger than yours on average. In these spots, you just learn which hands to get away from and which types to attack. If he defends a little, then you should be worried about Aces and faces on the flop and go blitzing with a low flop. If he defends a lot, then you might go ahead and give him a swift kick in the balls when an Ace comes up on the table or something if he's tight enough to respect it. Any open or flush draw, those should be played aggressive.
The big trick of SB vs BB however vs heads-up, is that you are always out of position in the SB/BB matchup, which makes life harder on the flop, since your opponent will often raise from his position to see where he is at. This means you need to be sure to vary your game up from pure attack to a lot of trapping with check-raises as well. IE, the naked Ace jam to the river, instead of betting the flop, betting the turn, getting raised and then dumping your hand, bet the flop, check-raise the turn and then option to complete the river against a serious defender.
My suggestion is to just play a lot of heads-up games and work on being comfortable feeling someone out with bets and being comfortable three betting with mid or bottom pair.
scottie_g.
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #7 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 12:01pm »
Quote:
Usually, like in a heads-up game, I'll decide to take the lead by being hyper until I go to a showdown. This has two uses:
1) Being hyper will often force your opponent to simply fold or dump his hand. Given that he'll be unsure of your exact status for some time, he'll be more apt to give up some hands before standing up and fighting.
2) If and when you get caught, he'll realize exactly how hyper you are and will NOT fold his marginal hand when you make your hand the next time around and pay you off.
MJ, while I realize that you are the man, and are much better at cards than I am, do you really think the Hyper-aggressive strategy is best in a 2/4 game? I completely agree with you at 5/10 or above, maybe even 8/16 and above. In a 2/4 game though, I think it's tougher to bluff people and get them to fold.
And, you say you are raising in this spot no matter what? Even with complete rags?
Also, your 2nd point may not work because I don't know if the person will be smart enough to notice that you are being this aggressive, or even care.
« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2005, 12:50pm by scottie_g. »
Biggle10
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #8 on: Oct 26th, 2005, 4:45pm »
on Oct 26th, 2005, 4:39am, goofyballer wrote:
I lose 0.19 BB per hand in those hands...that's a very bad sign.
Not necessarily. If you folded every time, then you'd be losing 0.25BB per hand.
MJ
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #9 on: Oct 27th, 2005, 1:01am »
on Oct 26th, 2005, 12:01pm, scottie_g. wrote:
do you really think the Hyper-aggressive strategy is best in a 2/4 game?
Well, hyper is how your first few encounters should be, but not your entire strategy once you've been caught. Even at the 2/4 game, you should have a read on your opponent and figure out what type of player they are. If they're extremely loose, then of couse a hyper strategy probably won't even work the first time. If they're tight, then any two rags work.
It's a very heads-up mentality, where you can never use absolutes to dictate the situation. Every single play is 'it depends'. So, you're correct in that a 100% hyper game is not correct, but hopefully that's not what I came across as advocating earlier.
Quote:
Also, your 2nd point may not work because I don't know if the person will be smart enough to notice that you are being this aggressive, or even care.
Actually, most people remember with astute clarity how often someone attacks their blinds. If you don't believe me, raise someone's blind three times in a row and they will almost certainly call, raise or start screaming in chat. They remember how aggressive you play and will want to get back at you if you're irritating them. Tilt does wonders to your opponent.
MJ
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #10 on: Oct 27th, 2005, 1:05am »
on Oct 26th, 2005, 12:01pm, scottie_g. wrote:
And, you say you are raising in this spot no matter what? Even with complete rags?
Forgot this point. But in a heads-up game, you pretty much want to play all of your hands with the exception of true junk. This doesn't mean you have to raise either, because you would never raise every single hand in a heads-up game, but until your opponent catches on or grows a pair, you might as well try.
Eruu
Re: SB vs BB confrontations in limit
« Reply #11 on: Oct 27th, 2005, 8:09pm »
I have had some success at just calling from the SB and then betting any flop from this situation. Then your opponent will think that you hit the flop and drop out. I usually feel more confident in folding if I get reraised here too.
And if you happen to be playing against MJ then go find another table.
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