QT / KT from BB / SB

[fifo]

Two hands from today:

I'm BB with QTo. Six callers in a 2/4c game. So, everything is normal. Flop comes AQ2 all different suits.

So, I got middle pair but a fairly good one. However, the hand is probably just mediocre, right? Anyone with Ace high got me, and any overcard on the following streets is dangerous. Also, there's the faint possibility of a straight - which I have also, but that's probably about half an out or so.
SB checks, I bet anyway, one calls, two fold and SB calls as well.
Turn brings a 3. There might be a straight out there already, so I just check along when the SB checks.
River is a 6, still no flush possible. But the straight draw is still very much on, so I still just check along. And win with top pair.

The very next hand: I'm SB with KTs.
Three callers, I call as well and BB checks.
Flop comes T35, again all different suits.
So, this time I have top pair, but a weak one, and a good kicker. Again, I'm not very happy but since there was no raise, I might have a reasonable hand, so I bet again.
All call, and off comes an Ace. This scares me, so I check and everyone checks along.
River bring a 2 (no flush possible). What now? No one has bet on the ace. Of course, there is the straight possibility (which I admittedly overlooked ), but apart of that, I haven't seen any aggression. So I bet. Everyone checks and they show TJo and A8o.

Bottom line: Those are simply bad hands, right? I have 5-or-so outs in each case. And just about every card that _can_ come off is scary. So checking along might be ok, but calling any raise is just asking for trouble, no?

But then, how _do_ I find out what they have? Betting yields at least a tiny bit of information, whereas checking doesn't. Or should I just assume that I have the crappiest hand around - which definitely is wrong considering what they usually hold...

[biggle10]

Two hands from today:

I'm BB with QTo. Six callers in a 2/4c game. So, everything is normal. Flop comes AQ2 all different suits.

So, I got middle pair but a fairly good one. However, the hand is probably just mediocre, right? Correct Anyone with Ace high got me, and any overcard on the following streets is dangerous. Sort of. Any broadway card at least gives you a straight draw. Also, there's the faint possibility of a straight - which I have also, but that's probably about half an out or so.
SB checks, I bet anyway I really don't like a bet here being out of position. Since its a very dry board there aren't many cards that really destroy your hand. Besides, there's 6! people in the hand., one calls, two fold and SB calls as well.
Turn brings a 3. There might be a straight out there already, so I just check along when the SB checks.I like a check here, but not for the reasons you stated. A 45 seems awfully unlikely if your opponents are trying to play well. I'm actually more worried someone flat called with an A.
River is a 6, still no flush possible. But the straight draw is still very much on, so I still just check along. And win with top pair.Seems fine

The very next hand: I'm SB with KTs.
Three callers, I call as well and BB checks.
Flop comes T35, again all different suits.
So, this time I have top pair, but a weak one, and a good kicker.You actually have a better hand here than you did in #1. Again, I'm not very happy but since there was no raise, I might have a reasonable hand, so I bet again.
All call, and off comes an Ace. This scares me, so I check and everyone checks along.
River bring a 2 (no flush possible). What now? No one has bet on the ace. Of course, there is the straight possibility (which I admittedly overlooked ), but apart of that, I haven't seen any aggression. So I bet. Everyone checks and they show TJo and A8o.Hand seems fine to me.

Bottom line: Those are simply bad hands, right? I have 5-or-so outs in each case. In hand one yes, in hand two it seems like you're ahead with that flop. And just about every card that _can_ come off is scary. So checking along might be ok, but calling any raise is just asking for trouble, no?

But then, how _do_ I find out what they have? Betting yields at least a tiny bit of information, whereas checking doesn't. Or should I just assume that I have the crappiest hand around - which definitely is wrong considering what they usually hold...

[sfustsh]

The first hand is way behind on the flop. Check fold. There is like a 75% chance there is an A out. You have a runner runner gutshot SD, which is worth (I think, I worked it out once) a third of an out. Not to mention anyone else with a T has a straight too if you nail.

I don't think I would have bet until the turn if everyone checks the flop.

Second hand the bet is better. I like it since you need to thin out. You are not losing to anything. You either have the best hand or you don't. Bet the river to try to thin, but you have to call a raise. Your hand "looks" like the best, anyone with an A should bet on the turn. If you lose you lose but it only cost you 4 bets to see this one down.

Getting information in limit is very hard. That's why I don't like it.

[fifo]

*grrr obviously I'm learning the hard way...

I'm SB with Q7s, six to the flop. Flop comes Q4J.
I figure I might well be best, plus, the J gives me a Flush Draw. Well. I bet, two fold, four call.
Turn is A (no flush possible).
I check, everyone else checks to the button who bets. I call, one folds, others call as well.
River is 7 (still no flush). Check again, button bets again, everyone calls again. Button wins with Ac4c.

I guess flop bet is ok, _maybe_ even the turn, but definitely not the river, right?
Actually, it hardly makes sense for him to bet out on the Turn with anything but an Ace... Or, if he indeed _was_ slowplaying something and isn't afraid to still bet into an ace, he must indeed have something good, like a straight or set

Speaking of which: Button holds A4s and calls the pair of four on the Flop. With six guys still in, he can hardly hope to win unimproved. So, is Ace kicker "worth" a bet (though I realize this is a question pretty much "in the dark...")

But, still, I walked away after about an hour with +5 BB for a net profit of 20c!!

[sfustsh]

*grrr obviously I'm learning the hard way...

I'm SB with Q7s, six to the flop. Flop comes Q4J.
I figure I might well be best, plus, the J gives me a Flush Draw. Well. I bet, two fold, four call.
Turn is A (no flush possible).
I check, everyone else checks to the button who bets. I call, one folds, others call as well.
River is 7 (still no flush). Check again, button bets again, everyone calls again. Button wins with Ac4c.

I guess flop bet is ok, _maybe_ even the turn, but definitely not the river, right?
Actually, it hardly makes sense for him to bet out on the Turn with anything but an Ace... Or, if he indeed _was_ slowplaying something and isn't afraid to still bet into an ace, he must indeed have something good, like a straight or set

Speaking of which: Button holds A4s and calls the pair of four on the Flop. With six guys still in, he can hardly hope to win unimproved. So, is Ace kicker "worth" a bet (though I realize this is a question pretty much "in the dark...")

But, still, I walked away after about an hour with +5 BB for a net profit of 20c!!

The flop bet is not only okay but necessary. Must try to thin. In limit I would have check/folded the turn.

Wouldn't have called the turn, but as played would have raised the river. Yes, I would have raised the river, though it's hard to tell if you're beat, you now beat 'just' a pair of A. Consider he could have Ax where x is 2, 3, 4 .. You beat all A except A4 A7 AQ AJ. Good enough odds for me to raise here. 8 Aces you beat and 4 you lose to.

He's not slowplaying anything. With that many players in the pot you have to bet, and his best possible hands are trip queens or jacks, which aren't 'that' vulnerable but are necessary to defend. Plus it's limit so it's a necessary value bet to build the pot. There is no way he can have a straight until the turn, but at that point you already lose to an A, so it's a moot point.

Your other question though, is calling with low pair top kicker worth it? With that many in the pot, it's an insta-fold for me. Third pair sucks ass, period, learn to let it go as soon as possible and you'll see your ROI skyrocket.

As far as limit goes, I play tighter than in NL, from the small blind I actually release that hand despite the pot odds. You may get 10:1 to call but your chances of winning are even less than that, so it's not +EV to call here with that hand. There's a good chance you're dominated (Q better kicker or 7 better kicker) and must be afraid of all overcards. Most of all though, your position is the worst on the table here, which MORE than offsets the fact that you get a discount to call.

[fifo]

Thanks, that makes sense - esp. the reraise. Glad I didn't consider it, though

As far as limit goes, I play tighter than in NL, from the small blind I actually release that hand despite the pot odds. You may get 10:1 to call but your chances of winning are even less than that, so it's not +EV to call here with that hand. There's a good chance you're dominated (Q better kicker or 7 better kicker) and must be afraid of all overcards. Most of all though, your position is the worst on the table here, which MORE than offsets the fact that you get a discount to call.

I have that straight from Sklansky/Miller on Hold'em. They recomend any suited on the SB. I assumed that they consider the likely return if I ever _make_ my flush higher than that half small bet.
But I should probably take it in that spirit: Either going for the flush and therefore having only to worry about proper odds and possible full houses/quads etc., or just folding anything short of a real monster.
It indeed is a pain to play something not completely water proof from early position.

[sfustsh]

Okay if could forget one thing from that book it would be that piece of information. Unless you are great post flop just having suited cards isn't enough to give you the edge you need to make them profitable.

I STRONGLY believe that the more players in the pot the lower your pot odds. You ever watch poker shows where there are like 4 players in a pot and they have the percents to win on the side? The one with the worst hand often has well less than 10% to win.

Suited cards are great but Sklansky is GREATLY overvalueing them. You will spend so much calling bets to draw to a flush that might not even be good that the half bet discount doesn't make up for anything. Not to mention when you hit pairs and straight draws from the small blind you're always in a hard place because of your position.

Look, being the small blind sucks. With other people in the pot, I often am just dying for someone to limp so I can fold mediocre hands. If no one limps I will usually raise any two cards.

My call range in the small blind is almost as tight as it is UTG (not my raise range though). Position is 'so' important in limit.

Sklansky probably has a point. You will make a flush 1/15 if you go to the river with suited cards (seems like it's more, doesn't it?). So you only need to make 7.5 bets to make it profitable. That, of course, assumes that you instantly fold any hands with no flush possibility. There are lots of times when you get in trouble pairing your low card or nailing a sketchy straight draw. Personally, I completely disregard this advice as useful unless you really know how to play properly after the flop.

[biggle10]

Q7s in the SB with 6 callers is an automatic call. How can it not be? Passing up +EV situations, just because you have tough(er) decisions after the flop is not the way to improve.

This is actually a horrible flop for your hand. Lots of limping hands have broadway cards in them. Checking with the intent of seeing how the action goes would be my choice.

The turn is a check-fold for me. KT got there. Bare A got there.

[sfustsh]

Q7s in the SB with 6 callers is an automatic call. How can it not be? Passing up +EV situations, just because you have tough(er) decisions after the flop is not the way to improve.

This is actually a horrible flop for your hand. Lots of limping hands have broadway cards in them. Checking with the intent of seeing how the action goes would be my choice.

The turn is a check-fold for me. KT got there. Bare A got there.

I didn't say don't play, the pot odds are ridiculous in your favor.

But this is the kind of hand you can get in trouble calling bets you shouldn't be calling with. I just recommend to avoid these situations until you can learn to play them. There are better places to learn, no need to force this issue.

[snickers99]

In limit I would have check/folded the turn.

As would I.

Your other question though, is calling with low pair top kicker worth it? With that many in the pot, it's an insta-fold for me. Third pair sucks ass, period, learn to let it go as soon as possible and you'll see your ROI skyrocket.

Good advice. The problem with limit, especially at the low level you're playing, is a lot of people will stay in even if they hit a tiny bit of the flop. Many times I'd get pissed because I raise with AK, miss the flop but bet out anyway and get called to the river because the guy caught bottom pair on the flop. Doesn't matter that I raised preflop and there's overcards to his pair on the board...they'll call you down if they have anything.