Stealing Blinds

[snickers99]

This hand has a little bit of history. The villain and I kept crossing paths the past few days. Actually, another player accused him of stalking him. I thought that was funny because I thought he was stalking me too. Although it doesn't seem like he targets me when we do end up at the same table, we have been playing against each other a lot lately. I think he does what I do...jumping tables looking for a good one and we've just been ending up at the same tables. I know he multi-tables...at least two, probably more. He's very tight. Stats are (after 216 hands) 12/1.85/8. I always notice him and try to stay out of his way when he's in a pot (respect, etc).

You guys know my lack of aggression. I don't usually try to steal blinds. But I've been trying to do it more in the right spots. Both the SB and BB (the villain) are tight. Thought it was a good time and I had an ace.....

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) TightPoker converter

MP1 ($6)
MP2 ($4.80)
CO ($11.40)
Hero ($9.75)
SB ($10.65)
BB ($10.10)
UTG ($7.50)
UTG+1 ($4.50)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
5 folds, Hero raises to $0.4, 1 fold, BB calls $0.30.

Flop: ($0.85) , , (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.45, BB raises to $1.2, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $2.50

Think about this question before I add more to the story.....what, if anything, should I have done differently?

[sfustsh]

I don't think stealing the blinds is really a necessary move in a cash game. It's not a tournament.

First of all, if you're going to steal the blinds, keep an eye out for the rest of the hand. In fact you should always be doing that, thinking about how you're going to play specific flops, turns, or river cards. In this case, you don't want to play A4o to the flop. If you flop an ace, you can't be too confident, because BB's range (calling out of position is pretty strong) doesn't contain many weak aces. If I'm going to steal the blinds, I'd like a hand that has some potential, and isn't likely dominated. Candidates are suited connectors or strong offsuit connectors (JT or QJ, something like that) in addition to all the "obvious" raises (pairs, strong aces, KQ).

The hands you want to avoid are hands that are easily dominated: weak aces or kings.

I would feel much much safer with 78s instead of A4o when the BB calls my preflop bet. It means I'm behind and drawing thin a lot.

This doesn't mean don't raise from the button. When you raise, do it because you have the button, not because you want to steal the blinds. Stealing the blinds would be great, but your goal is to get more money in the pot when you have the advantage. Your advantage is the button.

Basically, if you're not comfortable playing A4o if you get called preflop, then just fold instead of raise. You won't be losing a lot of value, and probably saving yourself money by not trapping yourself into a poor position.

As played you have to bet the flop and you have to fold to the raise.

[ugignadl]

It's fine. Villain might fold 77- to your cbet, so I don't see any problems.

[mirage]

This looks very good Snicks, A4 is a tad light but if the blinds are tight I often raise any A folded to otb. Stealing blinds in such situations is +EV, and it's also good for your image - might help you get more action on better hands you get in late position.

[mewsiclovr]

I like this hand, perfectly played IMO. I might bet a tiiiiiiiinnny bit more on the flop, but otherwise it's goot. Villain folds often enough for it to be profitable.

[caffiend]

You guys know my lack of aggression. I don't usually try to steal blinds. But I've been trying to do it more in the right spots. Both the SB and BB (the villain) are tight. Thought it was a good time and I had an ace.....

I don't believe it, but I'm going to agree with everybody. Weird.

sfustsh is mostly correct. Stealing the blinds isn't always a necessary move in a cash game. The most important factor is the amount of the blinds relative to the average pot. In a very loose game, say the average pot is $5 or so, you can lay off stealing the blinds because you'll more than drag in the blinds you pay whenever you win a pot. Your main advantage is playing above average hands, and when you sacrifice that by playing marginal hands against the blinds you're helping your opponents.

In a very tight game, say average pot below $1, you'll want to constantly pressure the blinds until the game loosens up. (Assuming changing games isn't an option.) Not only will you get eaten alive without stealing, your main advantage is forcing your opponents to play inferior hands. Remember, in a tight game resistance normally indicates a solid hand, so all of your big pots tend to be close. You want to then force people to play weak hands in small pots and chip them to death.

Which brings us full circle, to the statement that, "Stealing the blinds would be great, but your goal is to get more money in the pot when you have the advantage. Your advantage is the button." I would suggest that's a special case of a general poker rule, when you have specific knowledge to act on it can overide anything else.

In sfustsh's case, clearly he feels he can induce mistakes post-flop. That's a perfectly fair and reasonable suggestion. Indeed, if you really out-class the blinds, you can raise almost any two cards and clean them out post-flop. In your case, the villan's a tight multi-tabler who you suspect will rarely defend. Again, you can raise almost with impunity if you're correct.

However, and here's a big but, when you're acting on special information you must also adjust your range accordingly. That's why sfustsh prefers suited connectors, because he's only expecting to be called by quality hands. If you, on the other hand, are expecting to be called by random trash you should favor showdown hands, like Mirage.

Ideally you should further refine your range based on your opponent's probable reaction and postflop play. Ragged aces are terrible against people who will over-defend, because you can't stand a reraise. They're super-awsome against someone who's sticky though, and will call down with any pair. Conversly, suited connectors and small pairs can work well against over-defenders, because you can either trap him (suited connectors, deep stacks) or blast right back at him. (wired pairs, short stacks)

Before I shut the hell up, I'll leave you with one parting thought. Whenever you raise preflop in a big-bet game, you're increasing the effective stakes the hand is played at. The larger pot means larger bets, duh. This is one of those blindingly obvious concepts that everyone and their dog ignores. (And is much more important in pot-limit than no-limit.) The reason this is important to remember is because you can vary the effective stakes. All other things being equal, you would prefer to play for high stakes against worst players, and small stakes against equal or better players.

That can be the make or break factor in deciding to play a hand when you expect to be heads up. Since you're already avoiding this villian you're intuitively following that. The next step would be to try stealing over him when he's in the small blind and an awful player is to his left, or exploiting similar situations.

[sfustsh]

Great post caffiend.

I would like to elaborate on a point that you touched on.

A huge HUGE part of stealing blinds is relative stack sizes. If you have 100 BB each, you should favor big pot hands (pairs, suited aces, suited connectors). If you are short (25 BB or less or so, depending on opponent) you need showdown value. You won't have room to maneuver for complicated moves involving draws. Most of the action will be on the flop. Small pairs are bad hands for this. If you don't flop a set, you often have to give up if your c-bet is called or raised. But, worse, if you DO flop a set, you can't win as much money because you're short! Not to say that you should fold small pairs; not at all, but they are big pot hands, not short pot hands.

I guess my first post is a little more bias towards deep stack play (where SCs and strong dirty connectors are better hands than weak aces). Deeper, you can lose more money if you get tied down to a weak kicker with your ace. Domination hurts you more in a deeper pot than a shorter pot. In a short pot, you have to take your hand value for what it's objectively worth, because you will get all-in on the flop and turn frequently, and you need to be ahead more than you're behind in these situations. Remember, draws don't usually come in, so ideally you want to get all your chips in with a made hand against your opponent who overplayed a draw. Hopefully, your opponents aren't making the same stack size analysis that you are when you choose what to play preflop.

In summary, avoid situations where you can trap yourself if you are playing a deep pot. Hand selection is the first step to avoiding traps.

[snickers99]

Good discussion, guys.

I rarely try to steal blinds as I'm not comfortable in my post-flop play. I don't want to risk losing a large amount of money trying to win 1 1/2 BBs. So, it generally has to be the Perfect Storm for me to attempt it...rocks to my left who I'm pretty sure will fold preflop, a decent hand, image, etc. I generally agree that it's not a huge factor in cash games...I don't actively seek out opportunities or go into a table hoping I get to steal blinds. But I pay attention and if the situation comes up, I might give it a go.

Now, some after-hand history. I have never engaged villain in a discussion, even thou we've played together so much this past week. I rarely chat at all. Maybe a NH comment every once in a while. So I was surprised with the chat that came after the hand:

Villain said, "u steal way too many blinds"
Hero said, "i believe first 1 tonite"
Villain said, "it's all one big session"

I take that to mean he does pay attention (or has PT running)...either that, or he wants to make sure I think twice next time I think about stealing. Duly noted....next time I raise your blind, I'm gonna have a monster.

My blind stealing stat over 1.2k hands at this level is 3.80. I'm not sure what a good number is, but I'm assuming that's low. I feel PT is just guessing when you're trying to steal blinds since it really doesn't know what you're doing. It's probably lower than that because if I raise in a blind stealing situation as far as PT is concerned, it's probably because I have a hand I would normally raise with.

[caffiend]

Poker Tracker counts any opening raise from the cutoff or later as a steal. The truth is, it doesn't matter how many are "real" attempts. You're only really worried about your image. It might help to keep two hints you've heard before in mind though.

First, don't steal from the small blind. There's no compelling reason to put yourself at a positional disadvantage, so you only raise playable hands there. Oddly enough, this often works against both good and bad players. Bad players will tend to get beat up by the quality hands you play in the blind, and give you a narrow range in the button and cutoff. Good players who've also read the Little Green Book will probably give you a narrower range in the small blind, but be good enough to be wary of giving you position when you steal from the last positions. In my experience you also win uncontested more from the button and cutoff in small games. Most people consider the "full bet" you put in to indicate more strength than the "discount" you got by raising the blind.

Second, don't turn AQ into 72. I had thought this was from an old Mike Caro article, but google suggests it's in Tournament Poker for Advanced Players. Either way, it's good advice. You should never bluff with medium strength hands. Keep that in mind when you steal and ask yourself, "Do I have the best hand, or am I holding trash?" That will help you adjust your range and play post-flop. You want to steal with hands where you'll know with a high probability if you're ahead or behind.

[sfustsh]

Second, don't turn AQ into 72. I had thought this was from an old Mike Caro article, but google suggests it's in Tournament Poker for Advanced Players. Either way, it's good advice. You should never bluff with medium strength hands. Keep that in mind when you steal and ask yourself, "Do I have the best hand, or am I holding trash?" That will help you adjust your range and play post-flop. You want to steal with hands where you'll know with a high probability if you're ahead or behind.

This advice is for playing the blinds, I believe.

The idea is that if it's limped to you in the BB and you have J9s, then check or make a pot sweetener raise. This way, you will still get to see the flop, which is good because your hand is strong enough that you might flop something spectacular. On the other hand, 72o is a good hand for a large semibluff raise (in an attempt to win the limp money) because checking with a weak hand will yield you a profitable flop less often than J9s.

So, don't waste your moderate strength hands by making a huge pot stealing raise from the BB because you might flop something big by checking. Instead, use your true trash hands (J3o) to make this raise. In this way, you have no second thoughts about folding to a 3 bet and aren't losing value by taking the flop because your hand has poor flop value.

[neverthink]

Second, don't turn AQ into 72. I had thought this was from an old Mike Caro article, but google suggests it's in Tournament Poker for Advanced Players. Either way, it's good advice. You should never bluff with medium strength hands. Keep that in mind when you steal and ask yourself, "Do I have the best hand, or am I holding trash?" That will help you adjust your range and play post-flop. You want to steal with hands where you'll know with a high probability if you're ahead or behind.

Nice. I see hands all day long that are good about half the time but they decided to try and bluff someone out and lost a buyin because of it. I always think why not just check it and call a street instead. People are obsessed with having to always appear strong. They lack a significant dimension of postflop play.

[caffiend]

Nice. I see hands all day long that are good about half the time but they decided to try and bluff someone out and lost a buyin because of it. I always think why not just check it and call a street instead. People are obsessed with having to always appear strong. They lack a significant dimension of postflop play.

The reason I mentioned it isn't because I don't remember the book, but because so many people forget that stealing the blinds is a bluff.

Snickers, if I was unclear about that I mean that you should avoid hands that are medium strength heads up. A4o, for example, is ahead of Kx, behind Ax, pretty even with connectors and pairs. Basically, it's in the middle of the pack against hands people will defend with.

Particuarly in a cash game, you should apply pressure to the blinds with a hand that's either in the top end of your opponents range (ie, has him crushed) or is completely live against it. (ie, will bushwhack him) By sticking to a diet of monsters/garbage you greatly simplify your postflop play. Better yet, since you're basing your opening range on his calling range you'll automatically steal with the right frequency in addition to setting up profitable situations.