Stupid frickin spot on stupd frickn Party.

[neverthink]

Ok, so I'm doing a v bad job of quitting poker and in fact have never played so much in such a short space of time as I have in the last week, regularly forgoing sleep while 9 tabling etc. This is a spot that comes up all too frequently for my liking. No reads except that he is NL100 normal, as likely to have the nuts imo as an overpair or bottom pair or flush draw etc. Unlikely to have absolute air though. I am supertight aggressive probably, but mix it up with SCs, though I haven't really had any showdowns so they don't know that. Please, does anyone play this differently, comments on all streets welcome? Short hand, you only need the gist(?)

Eff stacks $100

I raise 88 UTG to $4, all fold to SB who coldcalls $3.50.

Flop was rainbow, K89, SB checks and I lead for $7 INTO $8, SB calls. I usually bet just $6 for a standard c bet but he could have a King easily so I'll bet it a little bigger all streets if possible.

Turn brings a flush draw K89 T SB leads for $18 into $21 pot. Thats alarming to me, but it could be 2 pair poss FD and I have implied odds to boat up on the river if I am behind. Does anybody say stuff that and raise him, get it all in on turn? I just call in the end, as I feel raising reps the straight.

River is a rag, no 4 to straight or board paired or flush draw etc. SB bets $30 into $57 pot. I...

... should raise? Fold? Call?

[sfustsh]

What are you worried he's got 67 or QJ? First of all I'm not worried he's got QJ at all. It's possible he's got 67, but good players don't like to play SCs OOP, so it's a little less likely than normal.

I'd say you're ahead here. Not raising the turn loses value from KT, and also eliminates your semi-bluff opportunity if behind (though the 'bluff' part of it is pretty much nil).

Yes, I am calling if he shoves. A made straight would not shove if he has one. Any half-intelligent player will just call a raise on the turn and fire on the river. I'd be more afraid if he just called my turn raise and shoved the river. He wouldn't want to scare away AK.

KT is the most likely possibility in my mind. But consider, he could have JT and just made a pair + draw (esp. if suited), 89, 9T, 78, 79, 8T are all possibilities and you crush that range.

He could also be moving on you because he knows you know you are repping AK or KQ, and he can beat that.

Even if he's got some huge, monster draw like JTs, you are still a favorite on the turn (after all, he's only got ONE card now). I'm getting in on the turn.

EDIT: At least call the river as played.

[neverthink]

Really, I see what amount to "good regulars" playing suited connectors from all positions to a single raise. I don't really consider anything done preflop in a 6 man cash games as watertight at high levels, let alone here. I don't know why you elminate QJ so utterly though, it's not like people fold gutshots is it. And folding QJ preflop to a raise? He's got paint man! He's got to take a flop. How often do you have QQ 3 outed by KTo crap on the flop, always seems to happen imo.

So 67 and JQ are the 2 hands that shot through my head when he bet the turn. I did feel likely to be ahead here, but his hand plays exactly like 67, JQ or KT or some pair that spiked a Ten for 2 pair. Less likely a flush draw, but his big bet threw me, it's not common is it. Let's sum it up though, he called a decent flop bet from a tight preflop raiser and now leads turn basically for pot, that exudes some kind of strength no? It's more a question of whether he is overplaying something I beat or has drawn to it. No doubt he does think that he is strong here.

Is it really weak tight to think that he is representing a made straight on the turn?

Is saying his range is KT/9T, JQ or 67 too tight? Smaller chances of a worse 2 pair.

[neverthink]

dblepst.

[sfustsh]

I agree that any suited connectors are within his range. But remember, 89, 9T, and 8T are all suited connectors too!

But look at how you played this hand, and even what you said about yourself. You're a tight preflop raiser, you're UTG, so you've probably got a strong hand. What kind of hand could like that flop? AK and KQ, KK, 99, and 88. So if I'm villain, I'm thinking that most likely, you have one of those hands, but most likely AK or KQ.

Anyway, think about what's gonna happen on the river. As you said, he's called a bet on the flop and led out on the turn. What's he likely going to do on the river? He's likely going to bet. Are you going to call that bet? Maybe only if the board pairs? You might, you might not, but I really don't understand how calling allows you to make the least mistakes on the river. It might be the right play on the turn, but it puts you in a bad spot on the river if the board doesn't pair.

After some reflection, I could see folding as a possibility, only because of the threat of calling a beat on the river. I still prefer to raise here though. Really, you beat a huge range of hands, QJ and 67 are just a small few you lose to.

[ugignadl]

Hey NT. This one is a little more standard for me, I raise the turn. Might even push since we have outs worst case scenario (even if just one out).

As played, call the river, no raise, raise = bad.

[neverthink]

Hey NT. This one is a little more standard for me, I raise the turn. Might even push since we have outs worst case scenario (even if just one out).

As played, call the river, no raise, raise = bad.

Yeah, I posted this because I felt like I'd missed value for it, well I actually did, he flipped AA at showdown, so this was stacktime. And yeah, I think as played river is just a call, turn I think I could have raised against most players, and if he'd bet less I likely would have done, but near potting it seemed very strong.

I think that as long as the river ragged as it did, no flush or 4 to a straight or anything I was calling him, in which case it may have been better to take yours and Sfu's line with a turn raise, get some from KT while we're at it.

[mirage]

I am likewise happy getting it in on the turn, and I also agree that as played you should not raise the river.

Yes, you certainly missed value, not because of what he had at showdown, but because considering the range of hands villain might play this way you had most of them crushed, and even if you were behind you had outs to fill up so that even in that part of the time you are behind you will win some of it back in the long run.

Also, LOL @ SB's play, coldcalling PF, calling flop, and leading turn. He turned his hand entirely into a bluff from the get-go, I don't understand why people get tricky with big pairs like this.

[sfustsh]

Also, LOL @ SB's play, coldcalling PF, calling flop, and leading turn. He turned his hand entirely into a bluff from the get-go, I don't understand why people get tricky with big pairs like this.

I admit that I often fall into their traps, but usually very cheaply. I raise enough of my hands that AA will be mixed in with 57s. I don't see any advantage to disguising AA, it only gets you in trouble.

[neverthink]

Also, LOL @ SB's play, coldcalling PF, calling flop, and leading turn. He turned his hand entirely into a bluff from the get-go, I don't understand why people get tricky with big pairs like this.

This is what drives me crazy with these fools. The number of times I have seen a second best hand that should have stacked off to me, or a hand I crush that has turned itself into a bluff that prevents me from comfortably value betting my own where vilain would clearly call all in, like here.

[ugignadl]

Also, LOL @ SB's play, coldcalling PF, calling flop, and leading turn. He turned his hand entirely into a bluff from the get-go, I don't understand why people get tricky with big pairs like this.

This is what drives me crazy with these fools. The number of times I have seen a second best hand that should have stacked off to me, or a hand I crush that has turned itself into a bluff that prevents me from comfortably value betting my own where vilain would clearly call all in, like here.

Exactly.

[poormanbilly]

Yeah, I posted this because I felt like I'd missed value for it, well I actually did, he flipped AA at showdown, so this was stacktime. And yeah, I think as played river is just a call, turn I think I could have raised against most players, and if he'd bet less I likely would have done, but near potting it seemed very strong.

Haha, this is awesome. I got to this thread late, but when I read it and looked that he was in the SB, I thought he might have AA. There aren't too many hands that a "good" player would just call from the SB with. I think he could have other crap too like KQs or something. You don't say what cards were which suits, but if I picked up a big draw + pair or something on the turn, I'd bet into the pot a lot of times. I think saying he has the nuts because lots of people play SC'ers from any position is a result of you being on a downswing. Try and get all the money in on the turn. Sets are what you live for.

[bram]

money in on turn, downswings will make you miss value in spots like this.