Slightly iffy top pair hand, what you guys think?

[neverthink]

Just had this in my last session, not been sat down long, but doubled up in almost my first orbit when I raised 77, flopped top set and got it all in with a guy who held 88 (I tell ya, I needed that ). Anyway, the villain here is above a full stack. He is not retarded imo, but is aggressive. He's three bet me once preflop and took it down on the flop, and I coldcalled one of his raises and folded to a c bet. That's all the tangles we've had so far.


Seat 1: ( $167.75 )
Seat 2: Villain ( $127.05 )
Seat 3: ( $287.86 )
Seat 5: ( $85.85 )
Seat 6: ____11____ ( $178 )
Seat 4: ( $98.50 )
Villain posts small blind [$0.50].
ploper_ posts big blind [$1].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ____11____ [ Qc Ah ]

UTG folds
MP1 calls [$1]
____11____ raises [$5]
Button folds
Villain calls [$4.50]
Big Blind folds
MP1 calls [$4]

** Dealing Flop ** [ 8h, 6s, Ad ]
Villain bets [$11]
MP1 folds
____11____ calls [$11]

** Dealing Turn ** [ 9s ]
Villain checks
____11____ checks

** Dealing River ** [ 8s ] Pot is $36
Villain bets [$32]
____11____ folds
Villain does not show cards.
Villain wins $68.10

I considered raising the flop but felt there was no value to be had, and didn't want a big pot with this hand, so I just call. I'm happy when he checks the turn, but his potting it on the river means bluff or monster. I think he may have flopped a set and led, checked the turn in case I made a straight (possible FPS?) and potted it on the river when he filled up. Or, he flopped the OESD, led flop and made it on the turn, tried to check raise and so value bet me on the river because he can't be too worried about a full house as I didn't raise the flop. Fold or instacall?

[randy72560]

I don't like col calling 4x the blind w/ AQ off.. But if your going to and hit, it would be a hard lay down... Sounds like you talked yourself into folding... I think you have to put in a raise on the flop to gain information about where you stand...

Also, you said you didn't want a big pot??? This sounds like an exploitable leak you need to work on.. What I mean is, if other players realize you like to play small ball, they will run over you given the chance... If they have some PT hands logged of you, it will show up if your sitting with a player that has it..

[mirage]

I don't like col calling 4x the blind w/ AQ off..

Hero raised after 1 limper, Villain was the caller.



I also think you are beat here the great majority of the time, a call is very read dependent. If you say he's solid though he's probably not pulling a bluff here as he knows that most opponents will call with a strong ace (which I'm sure he puts you on.)

I think you made a good laydown, but may want to note this in case you wind up in a similar situation and can look him up cheaply.

[neverthink]

I don't like col calling 4x the blind w/ AQ off.. But if your going to and hit, it would be a hard lay down... Sounds like you talked yourself into folding... I think you have to put in a raise on the flop to gain information about where you stand...

Also, you said you didn't want a big pot??? This sounds like an exploitable leak you need to work on.. What I mean is, if other players realize you like to play small ball, they will run over you given the chance... If they have some PT hands logged of you, it will show up if your sitting with a player that has it..

Randy, do you want a big pot here?



Edit: You are a cash game player right?

[randy72560]

Ah... Wait.. I mis-read the hand sorry...

So, he limped and you raised! Ok, well.. I still like flop raise here though.. I more inclined to think he's putting a play on you here w/ leading out... (I would do that)... I think he gave up on the turn, but when you checked behind him he decided to put you to the test.. I think you're ahead most of the time here.. He did limp...

Randy, do you want a big pot here?

Edit: You are a cash game player right?

I don't mind a big pot in this spot...

Yes, I'm a cash game player... I also have several big MTT's wins and many many final tables.. But, I'm not a pro either.

[poormanbilly]

Depending on how the table is and my image, I'd generally slam him back on the flop and fold to a push.

[neverthink]

Depending on how the table is and my image, I'd generally slam him back on the flop and fold to a push.

Yeah, sometimes I may do that, but mainly with AK, since I don't think I am going to take it down too often right there. I don't think he's led the flop only to fold, and I can't honestly say I'm too happy about a raise being called while I have only AQ, I guess that's a point me and Randy differ on, but it is why I prefer just to call.

Randy, you've still sort of misread it, but your closer . There was a limper, I made it $5 and villain CC from the SB. I think most aggro players reraise AK there, some even AQ. Because of that I think his range is a pocket pair or some connectors, which is why I would like at least AK before declaring war on the flop. If he had limp called as you've read it, I probably would have thought he had a pair of nines and was testing the waters, so I would have raised that. Does that alter your opinion any? Raising the flop felt like I was either raising into a monster, or letting him fold a worse hand.

I checked the turn because if he was big he was probably doing it to checkraise me with, and if he'd bluffed the flop then he'd just go away. My plan was to call a river bluff, but when he potted the bloody thing I had second thoughts about him holding air most of the time. I'd have called about $20-$25. In fact with AK I probably would have called him on the river in this spot, I likes AK.

[faquewdikhed]

you are only beating AJ and AT on the river pretty much. or some air. At first i didn't like the hand but on 2nd thought u might have played it pretty well, all streets. I like flop and turn though.

I think the river call really comes down to whether or not opponent will bluff. If yes, call, if no, fold.

[poormanbilly]

I don't think he's led the flop only to fold

You'd be surprised. LOTS of people do that with AJ to see if it's good and then fold to pressure. When I watched some of the CR vids, it was interesting how often someone would donk bet and then fold the flop to a raise.

[randy72560]

All in all, I don't think you played the hand bad at all bro.. Like you said, we just have different styles.. Neither one, right or wrong...

I think the most important thing that a winning player does is to think through the hand and you've obviously have done that.. It's the players that cannot explain WHY he/she played it like he/she did that are in the most trouble...

[mattaca]

Just to chime in, I'd be reraising the flop because I think I have the best hand right now and more importantly I want some info on his hand. If you call here and he checks the turn, again I think you need to bet it to see where you stand.

[poormanbilly]

All in all, I don't think you played the hand bad at all bro..

I still sorta do. If you're not going to find a bet or a raise anywhere and you're going to fold to a bet on either the turn on the river, you might as well open fold the flop and save $11. He is very well sitting on Ts and trying to push you off of kings. A turn check by him is a little suspect of a hand that beats you. I think he is holding an 8 and you let him get there. It was prolly 98 though, so meh.

[ugignadl]

All in all, I don't think you played the hand bad at all bro..

I still sorta do. If you're not going to find a bet or a raise anywhere and you're going to fold to a bet on either the turn on the river, you might as well open fold the flop and save $11. He is very well sitting on Ts and trying to push you off of kings. A turn check by him is a little suspect of a hand that beats you. I think he is holding an 8 and you let him get there. It was prolly 98 though, so meh.

I would have also raised the flop. The disadvantage is a large pot with a shaky hand, but the advantages are far greater: you have some chance to play the hand correctly on later streets.

[neverthink]

I would have also raised the flop. The disadvantage is a large pot with a shaky hand, but the advantages are far greater: you have some chance to play the hand correctly on later streets.

Lets say I raise the flop to $34 then, and he calls, the pot will be bigger than both of our stacks on the turn. What would be the correct play here assuming he checked to me? Am I now trapped into shoving? Or calling a shove on the river if I check behind turn? If he hit a small set on the flop he has me now in quite the predicament no? Either way, raising seems to give him the answer he wants, by folding out a probe bet from a worse hand trying to find out where he's at, or by taking some bait and creating a big pot for him. Do you think I am giving even a thinking player to much credit for this at NL100?

I'm just not sure I see the advantages in saying I'm willing to play for stacks here. Could you explain them to me? Is it to do with metagame?

[ugignadl]

If he checked the turn to me I'd think for a bit. A new spade. That's good for us. I'd push and hope he can call with a FD. You're not going to get any more money if he has a small FD ace and there is no spade on the river. If you push there is no river decision.

Now, however, if you put him on something with no spades and something you are beating, say AJ or KK, then I would check behind on the turn if checked to. Looking to make some cash on the river.

However, there is the distinct possibility that our flop raise is going to make him think we want to go AI right here and now. If he has something like a set, or wacky two pair, he might just push the flop. This would be a happy fold. He could also just fold to your flop raise.

Finally, he could bet the turn. This would be the hardest play to deal with IMO. I think you would be forced to fold, but read dependent (specifically turn actions in a big pot read dependent). Would be interested to hear responses to this line.

NT, my current style IS to do with the greater metagame. Now we have some very trained people playing online. But not all of them like to play big pots, and many will revert to a very easy style for us once you make this flop raise. I've seen people fold AK to it and curse my AQ (a live anecdote, sidebet that I had AK beat).

Anyway, that's my view of it FWIW.