Donk or Not

[snickers99]

Was I a donk here? I'll explain my thinking on each round. Keep in mind this is .02/.05 NL. I think I made one or two mistakes. No real read on villian (stats were for only a few hands...not even gonna bother posting them here).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) TightPoker converter

MP1 ($1.69)
MP2 ($0.84)
MP3 ($4.11)
CO ($2.90)
Button ($5.93)
SB ($6.72)
BB ($5.65)
UTG ($9.61)
Hero ($12.11)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , . CO posts a blind of $0.05.
1 fold, Hero calls $0.05, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.05, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Button raises to $0.15, SB calls $0.13, BB calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10.

Called the raise in hopes of a set



Flop: ($0.90) , , (6 players)
SB bets $0.2, BB folds, Hero calls $0.20, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds.

OK, got my set but a bit of a scary board. SB bets out and while I thought about a flopped flush, I know the odds of that are high. I put him on a flush draw or TP. I'm worried about the original raiser, so I just call. I'm glad when the original raiser folds.



Turn: ($1.30) (2 players)
SB bets $0.85, Hero calls $0.85.

I'm not sure if I should have made a move here. I still don't know where I'm at. Although I think I have the best hand, he could have flopped the flush. So I just call and hope for the FH on the river so I know I'm good or at least a lot better. Honestly, if I would have raised and he would have came over the top, I don't know what I would have done anyway...so a call seemed like the best thing to do.



River: ($3) (2 players)
SB bets $3, Hero calls $3.

This is where I surprised myself and really wonder if I was a donk. When he bet out $3, I almost insta-called without even thinking. Only after thinking a few seconds did I come to the conclusion that this was too big of a bet. If he had flopped a flush, I don't think he would have bet this much because what would I call with? I think he was trying to force me out. So I just called just in case he did have a flush. I say I surprised myself because my first instinct was to call.


Final Pot: $9

Results hidden below:
SB has Ad 6h (high card, ace).
Hero has 8h 8c (three of a kind, eights).
Outcome: Hero wins $9.

[easy_as_pie]

preflop i would raise but at this limit limping is fine i guess

flop raise
the board is scary. YOU must raise here. Even though it is a limped pot and its possible but unlikely, as you said yourself, that somebody flopped it. This is also part of the reason why I would raise pre. Any diamond ruins your hand.....you have to raise here.
turn raise.
the only reason why you should be calling flop is if are in position against a LAG and you are willing to take a risk of taking a turn card to stack him.
Now you just have to raise.
river raise
why didnt you raise river ? what are you worried about?
i would think that at this level people would not bet into you with a flopped flush and so many people to act behind them.

[sfustsh]

Wow this hand can be either really overthought or really simple.

I think it's not that hard to figure out. First of all, the odds of flopping a flush are around 1 / 100, and that's only if you got two suited cards. If he's got the nut flush, he's slowplaying, and that's the only flush he could have, because he probably won't call without an A from the SB. So there's all this evidence to suggest he doesn't have a flush. It's not airtight evidence (he could call with anything and not care that he's the SB), but it's pretty good evidence.

So once you figure that, you're not really losing to any hands here. In fact you absolutely have to raise to force out all those people behind you and make the original bettor call your raise to draw with his Ad which seems like a fairly obvious holding here.

The turn changes nothing, Raise and reraise.

Same for the river, still no flush, gotta figure you got the best hand, put it in there.

Edit:

I'm definitely busting against KK here.

[neverthink]

When you have trips on a 3 flush board, aim to get it all in if villain looks frisky enough to call, otherwise, assume you have the best hand. If you never worried about a flopped flush you wouldn't be going far wrong. You may have missed a golden opportunity to get it all in against a flush draw. Raising the river is not so important because he may think you slowplayed the flush and not call without one, which is bad for you. Your thought process is just a little timid, but on the right lines. NH.

[ugignadl]

Hey Snicks.

You want to raise preflop, and bet the flop, or in this case raise the flop a lot. You want to raise preflop to try and discourage (smallish) suited connectors from calling.

[nlman]

For those limits this looks good to me, actually. Reraising on the river is obviously useless.

If I knew he plays his draws like that, then this would probably be the best way to make the most of my hand. I won't lose as much to flopped flush, it will be an easy fold if he fishes it, and I'll make some money off his bluff.

Speaking of the flop and the turn raise: Do you think he would call a huge flop bet with his ace and then call the turn bet? If those were higher limits, then how would you play this? And what would you do if he reraised you on the flop? It may very well be the same ace played more aggressively, so would you fold to a bluff?

[snickers99]

And what would you do if he reraised you on the flop?

I guess this is the main problem for me in this hand. I think I was trying to get to the river as cheap as possible. At this level, not uncommon for people to play any two suited cards (but somewhat less likely as he was facing a raise from the CO). So I was afraid of the flopped flush. Honestly, if I would have raised on the flop and he re-raised, I don't know what I would have done. Watching him play later, I probably could have got him all in on the flop. Sometimes it's hard at this level to figure out if they're playing 'right' or just fucking around because of the low stakes...looking to stack somebody with garbage for fun, etc.

[ugignadl]

That's a good first step in learning how to `read' online players. Also, recognising a switch in someone's play early. This is an area where NL is easier than Limit, at least IMO.

Snicks, consider raising all pocket pairs from any position, if you are all deep enough. This gives you better odds from people who call, with the added bonus of fold equity and shortening hand ranges.

[bigdil511]

preflop i would raise but at this limit limping is fine i guess

flop raise
the board is scary. YOU must raise here. Even though it is a limped pot and its possible but unlikely, as you said yourself, that somebody flopped it. This is also part of the reason why I would raise pre. Any diamond ruins your hand.....you have to raise here.
turn raise.
the only reason why you should be calling flop is if are in position against a LAG and you are willing to take a risk of taking a turn card to stack him.
Now you just have to raise.
river raise
why didnt you raise river ? what are you worried about?
i would think that at this level people would not bet into you with a flopped flush and so many people to act behind them.

[easy_as_pie]

For those limits this looks good to me, actually. Reraising on the river is obviously useless.

If I knew he plays his draws like that, then this would probably be the best way to make the most of my hand. I won't lose as much to flopped flush, it will be an easy fold if he fishes it, and I'll make some money off his bluff.

Speaking of the flop and the turn raise: Do you think he would call a huge flop bet with his ace and then call the turn bet? If those were higher limits, then how would you play this? And what would you do if he reraised you on the flop? It may very well be the same ace played more aggressively, so would you fold to a bluff?

why is re raising on the river useless?

[mattaca]

I guess this is the main problem for me in this hand. I think I was trying to get to the river as cheap as possible.

I'm not much of a NL cash player, as you said, this is where you went wrong. I'd be thinking I need to to take this down before the turn if I could. Seeing the river for cheap is just asking for trouble. Again though, this is not my usual game of choice.

[sfustsh]

For those limits this looks good to me, actually. Reraising on the river is obviously useless.

If I knew he plays his draws like that, then this would probably be the best way to make the most of my hand. I won't lose as much to flopped flush, it will be an easy fold if he fishes it, and I'll make some money off his bluff.

Speaking of the flop and the turn raise: Do you think he would call a huge flop bet with his ace and then call the turn bet? If those were higher limits, then how would you play this? And what would you do if he reraised you on the flop? It may very well be the same ace played more aggressively, so would you fold to a bluff?

why is re raising on the river useless?

I wouldn't say 'obviously' useless but it's probably not a +EV play. You force out lots of hands that you beat already and will not extract extra value from them, and the range of hands that do call you are mostly winners, so you will get called by more hands that you lose to than you win against; ergo, -EV.

Edit:

On second thought, there aren't that many hands that beat you, and if you are beat you've been beat the whole hand. No straights and only 2 overcards for overset. I still think however the range of hands that you beat that will call is very nearly zero. I can see maybe two pair or a K calling but it's not that much extra value, especially if you think your opponent is bluffing.

[nlman]

why is re raising on the river useless?

Because as played there are only 2 possibilities:
1) He is bluffing. In that case he obviously won't call a reraise.
2) He has you beat. In that cast he obviously will call you.

Edit: well, on those limits he might be raising and then calling a reraise on the river with K2 But I was talking about higher limits where most players are not completely retarded.

@Ugi
What are you trying to acheive by raising any pairs in full ring? It is true that you add the preflop FE to your EV, but I noticed that if you do hit your trips, your preflop reraise will eliminate those very players that will call you (i.e. donks who hit 2 pairs with trash). USUALLY the only ones that will call your preflop raise will be low pairs (those will fold unless they hit trips), overpairs (more about those later), Ax and some faces (usually they won't go all-in with those either). Also, your PFR will be quite high, so those who know how to play poker will start reraising you to eliminate your trip odds.

[snickers99]

But I was talking about higher limits where most players are not completely retarded.

So because I play at such a low limit, I'm a complete retard?

[nlman]

But I was talking about higher limits where most players are not completely retarded.

So because I play at such a low limit, I'm a complete retard?

Amm... whatever your conclusions are...

But as a matter of fact, you are doing a very smart thing by learning on those limits. I started playing $0.25/$0.5 right away, so my total "tuition fees" were $1500 before I started winning (I got the last bit of it back yesterday, btw +$320 - the best day ever). If I started on lower limits, it wouldn't cost me nearly as much.