Reraising preflop with big pairs.

[neverthink]

I'm just curious, how much are most of you guys are reraising TT-AA, AK preflop, more applicable to QQ-AA in this question. I generally make 3 times reraise regardless of stack sizes, and if there is a raise and coldcall, up it to 4 times and so on. However, assuming that me and villain have 100 dollar stacks, and I reraise 4 to 12 with AA, I am offering him very good odds to hit a set, which obviously I do not want. Now if he plays his pair for set value, I stand to gain no more cash after the flop than if I reraised giving him no odds for the set and he folded (the extra 8 preflop is nice, but at the risk of asking to be outflopped?). In theory, given he is a decent player, I do not want that pair seeing a flop with me because I stand only to lose big and gain small, as my hand is so obvious. And then what about the times he makes a play on me and I fold the best hand. Or, say he calls with JJ or QQ and hits a ragged flop, he can still make me throw away the best hand by accidentally thinking he is in the lead.

I'm not suggesting that stacking off with an overpair to villains set is ok as long as you make him pay up badly first (though that's better than offering him set odds surely?). If we think about the hands that can profitably call us, they are pretty much limited to AK and AA-JJ. Pairs that can regularly get good flops or hands that can be pretty sure they have TPTK if they hit (in AKs case).

In my opinion, it seems better to make it standard to never offer set odds preflop when reraising, but does anybody reraise as a standard to about 4 times ie. 4 to 15 or 16 to cut odds? I mean this only when reraising, not opening or raising after limpers, it is not profitable to be making 13 times BB raises preflop obviously.

It is, of course true that he will have to stack me and that they are only implied odds, but I was curious if anybody took a hardline against setminers and they still coughed up preflop unprofitably. AA and KK have virtually no value post flop unless they improve themselves, and find a set over set situation. If you get action, you have nothing to fight back with, every flop is a dangerous one.

For the record, I have no issues with folding big pairs postflop and this isn't a rant, but there are many tough flops for big pairs. How about you reraise a guy holding JJ and he calls and you hit a flop like 974rainbow. You are of course not going to take this down with a c-bet. Now if he calls you can't really like it, and if he raises, where then?Given the reverse implied odds of hands like AA and KK, does it also not seem sensible to add maybe baby pairs like 22-44 to the reraising range. After all, if you bet out on the flop and get called you know you can give it up, but with AA you never know if you are being floated, slowplayed or have the guy badly dominated, because you didn't clarify things preflop by offering set odds. Plus with baby pairs you will sometimes flop huge to win a big pot, and often take the pot down with a c-bet anyway.

Thoughts appreciated.

[sfustsh]

*scratching my head*

Uhm.

It depends. With position I reraise JJ - AA against one raiser. In bad position I raise AA and KK only.

I play all pairs below that for set value against one raise unless I feel like it will be reraised before the preflop is over. Obviously, I raise all pairs from the button and the SB especially with no raises.

If the pot is unlimped, I raise JJ-AA in any position, but fold JJ often to reraises, and QQ sometimes. I generally do not ever fold KK or AA unless it's a deep stack push in a cash game.

If the pot is limped and I have position or will have position if I raise, I will raise any pair eights or better and generally c-bet. The size of the raise depends on the number of callers and with more than 2 callers I will limp 88-TT.

Never realized how much I thought through this O_o

If the flop comes all undercards I bet out every time. If I have QQ or something and the flop is an overcard, I bet anyway but will more often than not fold to a raise. You can easily force out lower pairs than yours by representing AK or something on the flop if there's an A or K.

Generally, you don't get flops that are 7 high or something, but if they happen to fall with something like TT you have to bet out. Most of the time you drag Ax that didn't hit with you (not that it matters if they did). Unfortunately, you have to let it go when A hits. There isn't as much to fear from Kx or Qx if the flop is undercards and the turn is a K or Q, but generally I slow down when a K or Q hits.

With KK I really try to get it in preflop to make sure crap hands like AT don't see it cheap. I hate having to slow down when the A lands but that's just the way it goes.

With AA there's not much to stop the steamroll, You can profitably call about 3 all-ins in a cash game and still have the advantage (that is, >50% to win) with AA. On the flop there isn't much to stop me from betting out. On the flop I'm only folding to gigantic raises. I don't think I can actually remember the last time I've layed down AA on the flop.

If you're asking how much do I raise with each hand preflop, it depends on position and the number of callers and the table, not the cards. Tight tables you raise less, I add 1 BB per caller on top of 3BB standard. From last position I raise 2.5 BB standard with no limpers and more with limpers. I like making raises from the button look like a steal attempt. I can't tell you how often I've been reraised from the blinds with crap trying to outplay me.

[ugignadl]

What sort of a question is that? Completely dependent on villain.

*edit: If you have specific hands to have questions about, I think it's better to have a thread for each question individually. Some hands can be very complicated.

[neverthink]

Yeah, I know it's awkward, but the question is, when reraising preflop with a hand tough to get away from like AA or KK, are you always making sure that the reraise is big enough to not offer set odds? I know this isn't going to solve every post flop problem with pairs and it's far from intended to, but I was reading on another forum a hand where a guy had KK and both he and villain were deepstacked at NL400 (like over 800 each). So if the first guy raises to 14, a standard raise would be to about 45-50, but he is getting excellent odds to hit a set here, and you do actually nothing to define opponents hand. But if you make a raise to prevent offering set odds, and actually define your opponents hand post flop, you would have to raise to something like 114 to make him call 90. Now, this obviously seems excessive, but is technically correct, and is what we do post flop all the time in defending our hand.

Post flop we will be putting in bets and raises approaching the size of the pot, to defend against one card. So why aren't we making appropriate bets and raises preflop because there we need to defend against 3 cards. It's not a common situation for me, especially being so deepstacked at the same time as an opponent is also, but moving higher up (Ug, not sure what stakes you play at) where deep stack play may be more common, what is the standard play preflop in this situation.

It's a theoretical question, about how deepstacked players don't defend their big pairs properly in most cases (that I have seen).

[ugignadl]

I don't think using `technically correct' and `defending properly' is a good way to phrase your point. Because it is grossly simplifying the issue. Sometimes, even online, you can fold your overpair. So what are your odds then?

I am always reraising with AA and KK, however what I raise to depends on the player and yes, our relative stacks. I have some confidence in my ability to not get stacked, so forcing out set odds is not always at the forefront. Getting my money in good is primary, and secondary is giving me enough bb to outplay my opponent postflop; whether that is with a good bet, call or fold.

[sfustsh]

Uhm your opponent actually needs to have insane pot odds to draw to a set, like 7.5:1 explicit. So unless you plan on paying off more sets than not, you don't need to go nuts reraiseing to stop set draws.

With big pairs I reraise for value, not to defend.