Good flop for me, but villain decides to get tricky.

[neverthink]

Just finished a session and this was one of the last hands I played.

NL 100 Party 6 max, effective stacks about 130 for me and villain 80.

I have Q9clubs OTB and 3 folds in front. I raise to 4, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop is JQ5 with 2 clubs. Villain checks, I bet 6, villain calls.

Turn is JQ5 (J). Villain checks, I fire 12 into 19 pot, villain minicheckraises to 24, I call.

River is a brick, low, I miss the draw, no flush or straight possible. Villain moves all in for 45, I...?

Does anybody cut their losses after the turn check raise since I lost the lead?

[easy_as_pie]

no, i think you are getting the odds to draw but i you can take a free card on the turn.

obv. fold river

[ugignadl]

check turn, call minicheckraise, fold river.

[neverthink]

Sometimes I do check the turn, but I still have top pair to defend and no reason to feel like I am behind. If I had AQo or a good hand but no flush draw, I'd have been tempted to just fold to the mini checkraise, even though I think there is a 50 percent chance at least that he is bluffing, the pot at that point would not be offering a good return to try and snap him off. Having got to the river via the flush draw though, I now have 2:1 on what is a very unlikely trip Jacks that villain holds, so I called, and was correct in this case.

If you do have AQo on this same board, what do you guys tend to do against villains turn play? Ug, do you check for pot control or just for the free draw? Do you do this with AQ or KQ as well? I'd appreciate your thoughts, as I think players make a lot of these plays and steal too much from players like us capable of folding good hands.

[cavman]

i'd usually check behind on the turn because it's not likely that villain is going to call another bet with a hand that you're ahead of. There is a very small chance that a free card is going to hurt you, but if it's a club you could win a huge pot. also, you don't want to risk getting check-raised off of your hand, since it has showdown value and a lot of potential to improve. finally, you can snap off a bluff on the river if he bets because he sensed weakness on the turn.

apparently the results are going to make this all seem wrong since you bet the turn and won a huge pot. but i don't think calling that river is going to be profitable in the long run.

If i had AQo in this spot, with the draw on the board, I'd bet the turn, planning to fold to a big check-raise. Depending on the river and the opponent, I'd likely check behind, but possibly value bet. This situation is different, beacuse villain can be drawing, so we don't want to let him draw for free. Also, our hand is much less likely to improve.

[ugignadl]

If you do have AQo on this same board, what do you guys tend to do against villains turn play? Ug, do you check for pot control or just for the free draw? Do you do this with AQ or KQ as well? I'd appreciate your thoughts, as I think players make a lot of these plays and steal too much from players like us capable of folding good hands.

for example I would play very aggressive. It is a draw heavy board and you need to make him pay to draw. Not that I would be doing anything crazy like insta-pushing (usually I play with big stacks so pushing is uncommon anyway).

With your hand I check behind every time and laugh my way to the bank. It is for four reasons, you mentioned two of them, I think cav? mentioned the others (not sure):

- Free card is always good.
- Some bad players see it as weak and will try to bluff the river, even if your draw hits
- Pot control. Don't want to see him push over the top of your bet and be facing a scary check-raise.
- He is (usually) calling only with hands that beat you.

KQ is much harder, that is in general a hard hand to play. Folding the best hand is par for the course, at least until you get a good read. I'd say it's a bad call on the river, it seems now that villain there must have been on tilt or extremely bad. Either way it's a good thing to note.

[nlman]

With your hand I check behind every time and laugh my way to the bank. It is for four reasons, you mentioned two of them, I think cav? mentioned the others (not sure):

- Free card is always good.
- Some bad players see it as weak and will try to bluff the river, even if your draw hits
- Pot control. Don't want to see him push over the top of your bet and be facing a scary check-raise.
- He is (usually) calling only with hands that beat you.

Right on!

[neverthink]

I'd say it's a bad call on the river, it seems now that villain there must have been on tilt or extremely bad. Either way it's a good thing to note.

Hmmm, it was anything but an instacall, but as I said, villain I considered to be likely bluffing on a scare card for me, and with so much invested, he has to bluff the river, and I felt I had a good price to snap him off. If he'd raised me properly on the turn I'd have given him credit for it and folded. I would probably have shoved the river on a bluff in his shoes as well.

Pot control is always important, but this is, like Cavman later said with his AQ example, anything but a board where I want to give a free card away. Any King, Ace stuffs my hand, and there are a plethora of cards that could make a straight for a drawing opponent, and I don't see how hitting my club will generate a big pot for me, my line would be well consistent with the flush draw. Your point Ug about letting bad players bluff at the river is a good line I'm employing more now, but usually only on dry boards or when I think I could be beaten but can call a reasonable showdown. KQ as you say is a bitch.

I can appreciate that there is division (ie. me vs TP lol) over the river call, but I don't think there I can possibly check the turn on this board, there are just too many cards to come that can kill my hand, and I have nobody to blame but myself if I get outdrawn. But I think there are more occasions where I could implement checking. I suppose it comes down to whether you still believe you are in the lead on the turn when he checks it to you, or you feel he is being trappy. Chrs for your opinions.