Flush Draw + Overs in a tourney?

[mattaca]

PokerStars Game #5905549504: Tournament #28904275, $200+$15 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2006/08/13 - 17:51:50 (ET)
Table '28904275 143' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: dolfan89 (8915 in chips)
Seat 2: PHARLAP 2 (3470 in chips)
Seat 3: cashryders22 (2690 in chips)
Seat 4: gangly joker (2795 in chips)
Seat 5: ynika (2870 in chips)
Seat 6: Doli (4440 in chips)
Seat 7: Zopa (1285 in chips)
Seat 8: Heinjer (1980 in chips)
Seat 9: tommyboy83 (3665 in chips)
dolfan89: posts small blind 75
PHARLAP 2: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to gangly joker [Qc Ac]
cashryders22: folds
gangly joker: calls 150
ynika: folds
Doli: folds
Zopa: folds
Heinjer: calls 150
tommyboy83: calls 150
dolfan89: calls 75
PHARLAP 2: checks
*** FLOP *** [2s 6c 8c]
dolfan89: bets 600
PHARLAP 2: folds
gangly joker: calls 600
Heinjer: folds
tommyboy83: raises 1800 to 2400
dolfan89: raises 1800 to 4200
gangly joker: calls 2045 and is all-in
tommyboy83: calls 1115 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [2s 6c 8c] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [2s 6c 8c 9d] [6d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
dolfan89: shows [Kd 8d] (two pair, Eights and Sixes)
tommyboy83: shows [8s 6h] (a full house, Sixes full of Eights)
tommyboy83 collected 1740 from side pot
gangly joker: shows [Qc Ac] (a pair of Sixes)
tommyboy83 collected 8685 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 10425 Main pot 8685. Side pot 1740. | Rake 0
Board [2s 6c 8c 9d 6d]
Seat 1: dolfan89 (small blind) showed [Kd 8d] and lost with two pair, Eights and Sixes
Seat 2: PHARLAP 2 (big blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 3: cashryders22 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: gangly joker showed [Qc Ac] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 5: ynika folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Doli folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Zopa folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Heinjer folded on the Flop
Seat 9: tommyboy83 (button) showed [8s 6h] and won (10425) with a full house, Sixes full of Eights

Ignore the limp with AQs. It was obviously wrong but I had been playing tight and my only hands o that pointshown down were biggies so I was trying to mix it up a bit.
On the flop I tried to find a way to get away from this hand but couldn't. I know I'm behind but I was getting almost 4 to 1 in the pot and I have flush outs and possible overcard outs. If I hit here I'm sitting pretty with 10K+ in chips and even if I only win the side pot I would still have about 1500 which is enough to play with.

Thoughts?

[ugignadl]

Alright, I'll ignore the limp.

That said the way you played it was pretty bad IMO. What are you expecting on a flop when limping with AQs? Better to just push and keep *some* fold equity.

Or play PF differently .

[jacedk]

I gotta agree with Ugi here, this was a pretty poor play.

1. I won't ignore the PF limp, because that's where you get into serious trouble. With a bunch of limpers in the hand, including the blinds, you have no clue what you are up against. And if someone raises behind you, how are you going to play it if an Ace hits the flop? Raise and hope he has AJ? AQ is a bitch to play out of position.

2. The flop gives you your flush draw, but it's also a good flop for a lot of other hands that could have limped, not to mention it could have hit the blinds (or some moron who limps in w/86o) for 2 pair. Once the SB bets the pot, with players still behind you to act, you should realize you are probably way behind.

3. You say you have a Flush draw and overs. But you should also consider that not all of your outs are good. First of all, if you are up against a set or two pair, hitting either of your overs are no help. Same goes if SB has A8, A6, A2, Q2, Q6 or Q8.

4.Raise or fold. If you call, what is your plan if someone raises behind you, or you miss the turn? Are you prepared to fold if a brick hits the turn and SB fires another potsized bet, having already invested about 20% of your stack? You should see that if you play this hand past the flop, it is almost certain that all of your chips will end up in the middle. If you are prepared for that, just push on the flop. Otherwise, fold.

5. Risking your tournament life on a draw when you have plenty of chips left is a really bad idea.

As for the "mixing it up" approach, that's a good idea, but in my opinion you should shift from TAG to LAG and back. Shifting to passive is not a good idea, except very early in the tournament, where the implied odds justify some loose limps with hands that have the potential to turn into monsters (PP's, suited Aces and connectors, etc.). And always remember position.

[LadyWrestler]

...

[mewsiclovr]

mattaca - like others I don't think I can discount the pf limp here - raising is critical to define your hand and get rid of the marginal hands. Plus as you said you'd only been playing monsters so if anyone is paying attention that should help you take it down right here (which you should be perfectly happy with).

Of course I'm not playing in the 200's so feel free to ignore me I guess.

[tightpoker]

Actually, I think the 4:1 pot odds calculation is wrong if I'm seeing it right. With the SB betting out 600, you're looking at far worse odds when deciding to call. At that point, you might have decent odds to call with overs and a flush and see if you can stack the guy - highly unlikely if an Ace or club drops howeber, which reduces IV. You need to be sure someone is going to call behind you to make this somewhat worthwhile, although players behind you are either going to raise or fold for a $200 game. With the raises coming in, your overs are absolutely no good anymore. You're up against two pair or set the majority of the time, so now you only have your club draw (minus the two most likely). At that point, you've got drawing odds. That said, you're still drawing to chips when you can risk busto in the tournament. For a draw, I'd rather have more chips to make it worthwhile, but it's not horrible after you're this far in.

[randy72560]

A couple of quick thoughts:

1. I hate calling off your stack here

2. Sometimes pot odds in a tournament are MEANINGLESS!

[mattaca]

Wow, bringing this one back from the dead. Was kinda hoping it would have been forgotten..... thanks LadyWrestler.

Yep, I agree I played it awful. Tough to recall exactly my thoughts on the hand, but I am pretty sure I had the 600 bet on a pair and was trying to drive out the rest. Still a bad call on my part. With the reraise I honestly didn't take the time to think it through. Calling all-in on a draw is not something I like to do, so I either "felt lucky" or was hoping to correct the mess I had got myself into but hoping to spike a club.

This is something I've been re-evaluating with my MTT game, taking the proper time to think about plays I am going to make and ones made against me. I had been sort of going on auto-pilot for the last few months and its been pretty obvious (= lack of success) that my mid-tourney/late-tourney game is suffering.

On a side note I somehow posted this thinking I could win a side pot which is painfully obvious I couldn't.