Did I calculate pot odds correctly?

[fifo]

Hi,

I'm new to this game. And, naturally get burned a bit currently.

One of my recent hands was this one and I am wondering whether it was correct to call the 1$ on the flop hoping for the straight.
As a matter of fact, after the turn, I still have 10-1 pot odds to get the straight on the river, don't I? But wasn't my play then "correct" all the way to the end?


***** Hand History for Game 5176419895 *****
$0.50/$1 Texas Hold'em - Friday, September 15, 13:50:19 ET 2006
Table Table 95998 (Real Money)
Seat 3 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 2: zyga48 ( $111.88 )
Seat 10: SirECartman ( $55.25 )
Seat 5: ltigha ( $19.50 )
Seat 8: na297 ( $28.25 )
Seat 1: TTWhitey ( $54.25 )
Seat 3: brus2 ( $24.25 )
Seat 9: Tschaenser ( $19.50 )
Seat 7: Wolf64 ( $4.50 )
Seat 4: gr8peace5111 ( $10 )
Seat 6: Ukesk ( $24.50 )
gr8peace5111 posts small blind [$0.25].
pretreltigha posts big blind [$0.50].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to pretreltigha [ 4c 6d ]
Ukesk folds.
Wolf64 calls [$0.50].
na297 folds.
Tschaenser calls [$0.50].
SirECartman calls [$0.50].
zyga48 calls [$0.50].
brus2 calls [$0.50].
gr8peace5111 calls [$0.25].
ltigha checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, 7c, Qd ]
gr8peace5111 checks.
pretreltigha checks.
Wolf64 bets [$0.50].
Tschaenser folds.
SirECartman calls [$0.50].
zyga48 folds.
brus2 raises [$1].
gr8peace5111 folds.
ltigha calls [$1].
Wolf64 calls [$0.50].
SirECartman calls [$0.50].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7s ]
pretreltigha checks.
Wolf64 checks.
SirECartman bets [$1].
brus2 folds.
pretreltigha calls [$1].
Wolf64 calls [$1].
** Dealing River ** [ Qh ]
pretreltigha checks.
Wolf64 bets [$1].
SirECartman calls [$1].
pretreltigha folds.
Wolf64 shows [ 5c, Qc ] a full house, Queens full of sevens.
SirECartman doesn't show [ 7d, 8d ] a full house, Sevens full of queens.
Wolf64 wins $11.75 from the main pot with a full house, Queens full of sevens.

Thanks for input!

[biggle10]

I think you're fine. One thing that you may consider is leading the flop. With a lot of people in the pot and you with a good draw, you want to get as many bets into the pot as possible.

The board pairing on the turn kind of sucks but you have good odds. If you hit on the river, don't go crazy.

[fifo]

Thanks,

It's one of those cases that (naturally) scare the beginner, because you know you "have" to do it, and likely loose money at the moment, just to play it "mathematically" right...

About leading the flop - thanks, good suggestion.

I guess I'll just watch 1/2 Limit-Games for a week or so and try guessing the cards and practice observing. I kinda feel I entered the pool too early...

[caffiend]

I'm new to this game. And, naturally get burned a bit currently.

One of my recent hands was this one and I am wondering whether it was correct to call the 1$ on the flop hoping for the straight.
As a matter of fact, after the turn, I still have 10-1 pot odds to get the straight on the river, don't I? But wasn't my play then "correct" all the way to the end?

At first, I would suggest only drawing to the nuts. Although you can make a straight, at no point in this hand can you make the best hand possible. Drawing to hands that aren't sure winners works best against specific opponents when you're reasonably sure what they're holding. It can also be somewhat tricky, because you'll often want to bet with the current worst hand to see where you are. At .5/1 your primary focus should be finding tables full of morons, getting big hands, and dishing out beatdowns with them. If you try and get too creative you're bringing a knife to the gunfight.

Calling on the flop is questionable, unless you know something about brus2 that you aren't sharing with the class. He's raising two people, which shows significant strength. Without a flush draw on the board, that's probably two pair or better strength. Two pair is bad for your straight draw, a set is a disaster. You're putting in $1 in a pot that you've only contributed the blind to, against someone who may very well have a better hand and better draw than you do.

That's the reason odds can be misleading. Little mistakes early often become complete quagmires late. You begin on the flop hoping nobody has 68, then on the turn you hope nobody has a full house, and so on. The entire time you're sinking more money into a hand that will never be the best hand, and hence difficult to get paid off with. It can be a big looser, but never a big winner.

[biggle10]

I'm new to this game. And, naturally get burned a bit currently.

One of my recent hands was this one and I am wondering whether it was correct to call the 1$ on the flop hoping for the straight.
As a matter of fact, after the turn, I still have 10-1 pot odds to get the straight on the river, don't I? But wasn't my play then "correct" all the way to the end?

At first, I would suggest only drawing to the nuts. Although you can make a straight, at no point in this hand can you make the best hand possible. Drawing to hands that aren't sure winners works best against specific opponents when you're reasonably sure what they're holding. It can also be somewhat tricky, because you'll often want to bet with the current worst hand to see where you are. At .5/1 your primary focus should be finding tables full of morons, getting big hands, and dishing out beatdowns with them. If you try and get too creative you're bringing a knife to the gunfight.

Calling on the flop is questionable, unless you know something about brus2 that you aren't sharing with the class. He's raising two people, which shows significant strength. Without a flush draw on the board, that's probably two pair or better strength. Two pair is bad for your straight draw, a set is a disaster. You're putting in $1 in a pot that you've only contributed the blind to, against someone who may very well have a better hand and better draw than you do.

That's the reason odds can be misleading. Little mistakes early often become complete quagmires late. You begin on the flop hoping nobody has 68, then on the turn you hope nobody has a full house, and so on. The entire time you're sinking more money into a hand that will never be the best hand, and hence difficult to get paid off with. It can be a big looser, but never a big winner.

I don't see a flush draw anywhere.

[caffiend]

I don't see a flush draw anywhere.

That's what I said. There is no flush draw.

The thing is, a late position raise of two people normally indicates significant strength or a desire to cut people off. Since brus (the late raiser) can't have a flush draw I would say he has either top pair, two pair, or a set most times.

Top pair is unlikely in an unraised pot. Obviously AA/KK would have raised before the flop, and likely AQ as well. That leaves you pretty much exactly KQ if you want to give him a pair.

Two pair or a set is his most likely holding then. Not QQ (unraised pot again) but 55/77 or Q7s/Q5s even 57 if he's a total moran. None of those are good news. I agree that I would call if I had bet at the flop originally, because it's only one more bet into a large pot. But given that he saw the flop for free in the blind and has already checked, it's a minimal loss by folding. I'm not going to cry if I fold a non-nut straight draw to a full house draw when I've got nothing in the pot.

[caffiend]

I guess I'll just watch 1/2 Limit-Games for a week or so and try guessing the cards and practice observing. I kinda feel I entered the pool too early...

It's always a good idea to play stakes you're comfortable with, even if it's pennies. I didn't really "get serious" until I started at .05/.10 and work up the ladder a bit. I think the smaller games were essential in getting aggressive enough when it's called for.

I'm not real big on the entire moving up one limit at a time idea, but everyone does some version of that. I played .05/.10 for exactly as long as it took to get the bankroll for .25/.50 and made a smooth transistion. Taking on 1/2 was a bit of a shock, but not too much. I knew I'd be able to fall back on the .25/.50 game I'd murdered if I needed to. Even after a while at 1/2 though, 2/4 was a big jump for me. That was just a lot of money to put into the pot. Now it hardly seems like a big deal.

Of course, 3/6 was a fairly easy jump. I mean, it's not much bigger than 2/4. It is, however, the highest I play comfortably now. Even though I have the bankroll for 5/10 I'm not quite ready yet to start splashing around with $10 chips.

[fifo]

Hey,

first off, thanks for all the input - if only to show me how many things there were I DIDN'T think of...

about the stakes: I would like to play even lower stakes, but .5/1 is the lowest they have on PartyPoker. I noticed NoblePoker having .02/.04 tables. So maybe that's a better place to start...? Hmm...

Well, as I said, I'll play "dry" for as long as I need to feel that I have gained some hold on the game. I figure, I'll sit and observe a live table and draw my own hand with a deck of myself. Then I'll just play _as if_ I was part of the table and write everything down, the betting, my tells on them, my (fake)-balance, everything.
Of course, the betting will be a bit ridiculous at times since if I get AA on my private deck and raise strongly preflop, they still might happily check along since they can't know what I do. But it gives me the time and chance to "do it right" without having to worry of loosing any real money.
That way, I can focus on profiling, really calculating odds, outs etc.

Because, from following those histories from the main site, I realized that I probably partially ran at the wall because I tried to play way too tight. Only playing AA, KK, QQ, JJ and AKs/o to minimize risk is too few hands. I'll have to spend 3-5 rounds waiting for one of them and anyone can figure what I have when I eventually enter a pot. Plus, it get's tough waiting for such a hand, you get reckless, try to force things, in short, all the bad stuff you have to avoid. Plus, it gets extra hard folding AKo if it's the first hand you played for 5 rounds or so
What do you think?

[mervhage]

Pokerstars also has .02/.04.

IMO, I don't see how waiting around for top 5 or 6 hands is profitable. I think playing so tight that you limit yourself to these hands takes away from becoming a better player and doesn't allow you to grow.

just my two cents.

[caffiend]

about the stakes: I would like to play even lower stakes, but .5/1 is the lowest they have on PartyPoker. I noticed NoblePoker having .02/.04 tables. So maybe that's a better place to start...? Hmm...

That's true, you can only play the beginner tables at Party for thirty days or something. But, as you've pointed out, you can play as low as .01/.02 at other rooms. It may be easiest if you pick a particular limit and ask for suggestions. Even if nobody here plays that small, they can look in on the tables at sites where they have an account.

My gut feeling is that Poker Stars is still your best bet below .25/.50, and one of the cryptologic skins for .25/.50. It's been a while since I looked though.

[fifo]

I just started at NoblePoker. I signed up already for the $5 bonus for their "survey" so I already had money in there.
Interesting to note, since I'm from a EUR-country, they actually gave me EUR5, which is something like $6,33. Big deal ;o) But it _is_ 30% or so plus.