AQ hand 1st Level

[mousey]

NO_LIMIT TEXAS_HOLDEM $20+$2 (real money), #1,579,047,086
Denton Single Table Tournament, 12 Dec 2005 12:26 AM ET

Seat 1: rufusdt ($1,480 in chips)
Seat 2: tonikukoc07 ($1,015 in chips)
Seat 3: trent4155 ($1,480 in chips)
Seat 4: the ves man ($2,515 in chips)
Seat 5: McTampon ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 6: GB Fan ($1,510 in chips)
Seat 7: P.A.G ($1,000 in chips)
Seat 8: bigsnake27 ($1,430 in chips)
Seat 9: gillyscoast ($3,100 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
gillyscoast posts blind ($10), rufusdt posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
tonikukoc07 folds, trent4155 folds, the ves man folds, McTampon bets $60, GB Fan folds, P.A.G folds, bigsnake27 calls $60, gillyscoast folds, rufusdt calls $40.

FLOP [board cards 10C,AD,4S ]
rufusdt checks, McTampon bets $70, bigsnake27 bets $140, rufusdt folds, McTampon calls $70.

TURN [board cards 10C,AD,4S,QC ]
McTampon bets $200, bigsnake27 bets $700,

McTampon ???????????????????


bets $1,070 and is all-in, bigsnake27 calls $530 and is all-in.

RIVER [board cards 10C,AD,4S,QC,9D ]


SHOWDOWN
McTampon shows [ QD,AS ]
bigsnake27 shows [ 4H,4C ]
McTampon wins $40, bigsnake27 wins $2,930.

SUMMARY
Dealer: bigsnake27
Pot: $2,970
rufusdt, loses $60
tonikukoc07, loses $0
trent4155, loses $0
the ves man, loses $0
McTampon, bets $1,470, collects $40, net -$1,430
GB Fan, loses $0
P.A.G, loses $0
bigsnake27, bets $1,430, collects $2,930, net $1,500
gillyscoast, loses $10

[bobcorn]

Easy push. That being said i bet more in the range of 120-180 on the flop.

[scottie_g]

Hmmmm... I raise more preflop. (See 2nd paragraph about implied value). I would lead on on the flop as you did, but the raise would make me very suspicious. What in the hell is he raising you for? I can't see any reason for a raise like that this early in the tournament unless he was looking to extract more value. I would put him on a flopped 2 pair. This early in the tournament I would think about folding this hand.

This is similar to the "Don't go broke in an un-raised pot" idea. Now, the pot was raised preflop, but not enough to stop people from calling with hands like 4-4. He is actually correct to call here with 4-4 because of the implied value.. meaning if he flops a set, there is a good chance he will take your stack. He is probably hoping you have an Ace so he can bust you with his set.

I can't see how calling does too much for you on this hand... seeing as you don't really have any draws and draws = death in NL poker. Well, given that you did call, and hit a Queen, I'm probably losing all my chips there too.

[mousey]

Hmmmm... I raise a little more preflop.

I thought the same but there were already three all ins against raisers already and some donk pushed AQ against someone's KK two hands prior. I wasn't in the mood to fold off if the same person pushed a third time.

[goofyballer]

Check the turn. It's unlikely that he was min-raising on a draw as a free card play, so you have to be very, very worried about a set here. Once you bet $200, your stack is going in the middle and that's that; as passive as check-calling is, doing so might let you escape with chips left, and if you're ahead with something like worse two pair then he'll still bet enough to give you plenty of chips.

A concept I learned on 2+2 (I think in the JJ hand discussion Miami posted in another thread): In a hand like this, the chips you lose to a set are a lot more valuable than the chips you win from a worse two pair, or AK, or whatever hands might make this play that you beat. Do you understand why?

btw, if you have reads, include them in the original post.

[biggle10]

Do you understand why?

Don't make MJ ban you.....

We should ban this phrase.

[goofyballer]

Lol, it's your own god damn fault for making me hang out at 2+2 too much. I didn't mean that as a "you're a retard" comment the way everyone on 2+2 means it (otherwise I would have said "do you see why?"), just seeing if it needs further explanation or if what I said suffices.

Bill Fillmaff: YOU'RE NOT GONNA RUNNER RUNNER YOUR WAY OUT OF THIS ONE!
Skinny Twig: [gets hit in the back of the head with a pool ball] AAAAHHHH
Bill Fillmaff: Now that's justice. Do you see why?

[scottie_g]

In a hand like this, the chips you lose to a set are a lot more valuable than the chips you win from a worse two pair, or AK, or whatever hands might make this play that you beat. Do you understand why?
.

No, I don't. That sentence makes no sense. And I did read that post on 2+2.

[bobcorn]

I dont think check-calling the turn is an option. There are just too many draws out there to give a free card. The min raise on the flop isnt necessarily a set. I've seen tons of players do this w/ top pair weak kicker to try and gain information, so you could definitely be ahead on this flop. I think you have to be willing to go broke on this turn, otherwise there was no point in calling the flop raise.

[goofyballer]

You're familiar with the idea that chips change value, right? And how each chip you add to a tournament stack has less value than the previous one? i.e. with 200/400 blinds, if you have 800 chips those chips are really fucking valuable, but if you have 40,000 chips then the last 800 chips in your stack don't make much of a difference.

In this hand, if Mousey pushes and wins, he's doubling his stack of 1470 chips. The 1470 chips he profits by winning, however, are significantly less valuable than the 1470 chips he loses by losing; 1470 chips off a 3k stack are less valuable than 1470 chips off a 1470 chip stack.

I dont think check-calling the turn is an option. There are just too many draws out there to give a free card. The min raise on the flop isnt necessarily a set. I've seen tons of players do this w/ top pair weak kicker to try and gain information, so you could definitely be ahead on this flop. I think you have to be willing to go broke on this turn, otherwise there was no point in calling the flop raise.

That was a completely drawless flop, though, so if villain has a good draw on the turn, that means he raised the flop with total garbage. Worst case, you're giving AJ/AK a free chance at a gutshot if it's checked behind; but who checks AJ/AK on that turn? There's a small chance villain has four to the flush, but it's not like he raised the flop with a backdoor flush draw. The chances of giving up a damaging free card here are ridiculously small. I think the point of calling the flop raise might not be trying to improve your hand, but to get to showdown as cheaply as possible.

[jacedk]

I raise more on the flop as well. The 70$ bet into a 190$ pot looks like a weak continuation bet, and you gain more information by making a bigger bet.

If he still raises you after you bet 150$ on the flop, I would drop the hand right there. And if he flat-calls I would look hard for a trap and proceed with caution.

As the play went, I would also be suspecious of two pair or a set from the min-raise. AK would surely have reraised pre-flop, so that's unlikely unless he is tricky. Another option is that he is making a weak free-card play, but as goofy pointed out, there are no real draws on the flop.

Goofy's point about checking the turn is good. If you bet, you have to be prepared to put all your chips in the middle. And it is early in the tournament to risk your entire stack.

Faquewdikhed made a good point in this thread. "If I go all in, would I be happy if I got called? " If the answer is no, then I would not put myself in a position where my chips are forced into the middle. That pretty much happended on the turn with your bet, so if you are going to call his all-in, why not make the move first?

That being said, I've seen plenty of donk plays (including my own ) in the $20+2's, and in the heat of the moment, I'm pretty sure I would have pushed all of my chips too, with top two pair on the turn.

[mousey]

No more than a few STTs later, the same thing happened to me. I should find the hand but I am at a diffferent computer; will follow up tomorrow. Except this time the donk didn't have a set. He was trying to push me out and I nailed him hard; doubled up and used my stack to get money.

I dunno, like I said before to many people. AQ and AK are the hardest calls to make with a paired A and a push is involved; especially early on when you don't know for sure who the donks are.

[puckhead23]

I think all of the points made here are great, but Mousey's last point is so true. Early on in a tournament, you just don't know if you are up against a complete donk or a competent player. While it is important to be mindful of the set or made 2 pair on flop, it is equally important to be cognizant that you can double up easily over a weaker ace. When the Q hit on the turn, you'd only have a set to worry about.

Without reads, it would be incredibly difficult not to go broke here (I certainly would have). Flat calls on the flop don't worry me as much as they should because of the quantity of players I see flat calling with 2nd pair or worse. I would be convinced I was ahead here. That said, separating the poor players from the good ones is an important part of my online game I need to improve. For some reason, I do better job of this in a live game.

[bobcorn]

Goofy, you're right, a draw wouldnt have played this way but i still think we are ahead. They safer play wouldve been to check but since he bet and his opponent raised i think he can have TT, 44, A10, A4, AQ, AJ and AK. I'm counting out AA because he probably wouldve reraised pf. So i still push here because even if we are behind, we have 4 outs and i dont think we are behind here very much.