push range late in MTT

[easy_as_pie]

You are deep ITM in an MTT and have less then 25xbb. Let's say that the blinds are 500/1k and you have 21k. Which hands do you push in EP, MP and LP, assuming that once it gets to you everybody folded? Do you push any hands if you have 30xbb or more?

2nd scenario. Also deep ITM in an MTT. You just been moved to a new table or have played less than an orbit at your table and no1 has any reads on you. Again, say you have 20xbb. It folds around you on the button which hands do you push? What about if everybody folds to your SB? If everbody folds to SB, he limps, and you are in the BB? If the CO or button limps together with the SB does your pushing range change from the BB?

What changes if BB has roughly the same stack as you do or if he has you covered by a decent amount of chips? Assume that the players in the BB/SB are average.

I am interested to see what everybody's range is in these situations because I think this might be one of my leaks. I either have a massive stack at this point or very low like 20xbb, and I am pushing very hard to accumulate chips to have a shot at the FT/1st place if I am low. So I bust out very often before the FT when I push in these spots and get called.

[bobcorn]

I never open push with 20x. In regards to pushing preflop in general, it depends on so many factors that it's impossible to give answers without reads. If you have specific hands you want feedback on, post them.

[easy_as_pie]

anybody else not open push with 20xbb stack at these stages? lets assume no reads and we were just moved to the table or for the sake of the argument, if it makes you feel any better assume its an avg. table where the majority wants to FT and the big stack is raising about once every orbit.
Does that help?

for bobcorn, I have a question then. Lets say you raise 3xBB, thats what you are saying you would do right? Are you folding to a push with less then premium hands? Are you c-betting flop when you are not called and you dont hit, in one-way pots, in multy way pots (BB and button and or bigstack tag along here quiet often)? Are you c-betting flop when you hit a marginal hand and folding to a push? Basically what I am saying is that at this point winning the blinds uncotested is a rather large % increase in your stack. 20xbb is very small. One PFR that gets called and doesnt hit and or gets re raiesed and you are screwed. You don't want to commit that much of your stack and fold to a push so might as well push yourself to maximize your FE.

[bobcorn]

for bobcorn, I have a question then. Lets say you raise 3xBB, thats what you are saying you would do right? Are you folding to a push with less then premium hands? Are you c-betting flop when you are not called and you dont hit, in one-way pots, in multy way pots (BB and button and or bigstack tag along here quiet often)? Are you c-betting flop when you hit a marginal hand and folding to a push? Basically what I am saying is that at this point winning the blinds uncotested is a rather large % increase in your stack. 20xbb is very small. One PFR that gets called and doesnt hit and or gets re raiesed and you are screwed. You don't want to commit that much of your stack and fold to a push so might as well push yourself to maximize your FE.

Well I play mostly sng's so 20xbb is a monster stack to me. I am usually raising 2.5-3xbb and c-betting 4x on most flops against 1 opponent. Against multiple opponents it really depends on the flop texture. If I'm reraised I'm letting any marginal hands go unless I have a strong read. If you are pushing with 20x that might be your leak right there. Maybe you're confusing this with the 10xbb rule because 20x is no where near desperate or pot commited when you make a standard raise.

[mewsiclovr]

This is an MTT I assume? Does our strategy differ from SnG's then, in that we want to keep putting the pressure on even with marginal hands to increase our chance of making the FT?

[easy_as_pie]

You are deep ITM in an MTT .

yes....please read the whole post .

bobcorn, so you are basically committing over 50% of your stack with the intention of folding if you dont flop big or if someone re reaises? Afterwards, you are on life-support and have very little FE with like 7xbb. How is this better then pushing your whole stack in the first place when you have much greater FE against larger stacks and slightly better hands that still dominate you but won't call and won't be forced into a tough decision preflop if re raised or postflop if you don't flop?


Mew(do you mind if i call you that). Basically, yes + I want to avoid the problems that I outlined above and in my earlier posts in this thread. Its +EV to push in my opinion because the blinds picked up represent a significant increase in your stack, becasue your FE is much great and unless you are completly dominated, the dead money in the pot (blinds and antes) make it a + EV push, because the value of a big stack in is much more valuable then then avg. or med stack so I would be willing to risk here. Say I push with A7 and win 1/3 times. For the sake of the argument say that when I win I take first 40% of the time and place top 3 75% of the time but when I loose I bust versus when I don't push I make the FT or deeper in ITM 95% of the time but take first like 10% of the time. Am i making sense or should i go back re-learng english?
I guess the problem here is that I was asking about a pushing range assuming everybody here pushes but apparently it goes deeper because people don't push in these spots.

[bobcorn]

bobcorn, so you are basically committing over 50% of your stack with the intention of folding if you dont flop big or if someone re reaises? Afterwards, you are on life-support and have very little FE with like 7xbb. How is this better then pushing your whole stack in the first place when you have much greater FE against larger stacks and slightly better hands that still dominate you but won't call and won't be forced into a tough decision preflop if re raised or postflop if you don't flop?

If I have 20xbb and raise 2.5x preflop, then make a c-bet of 3.5x, I have committed less than 1/3 of my stack and still have 14xbb left to play with. You talk about it like I'm going to be raised every time I bet, which just isn't so. I think you mean 10xbb in which case I agree with you.

[mewsiclovr]

We may have gotten our lines crossed somewhere. I fully agree 10BB's should be pushing, but 20BB's can afford a smaller raise +cbet if necessary. We're still putting the pressure on without running the risk of being busted, and even if we do get called out then we still have some FE left.

*Edit: Mew's fine.

[poormanbilly]

10BB, 20BB, or 100BB doesn't mean shit if I don't know how many BB the rest of the table has. If I have 20BB and everyone else has 5BB, then I'm not pushing very many hands.

[bobcorn]

10BB, 20BB, or 100BB doesn't mean shit if I don't know how many BB the rest of the table has. If I have 20BB and everyone else has 5BB, then I'm not pushing very many hands.

We are assuming our effective stack is 20x.

[easy_as_pie]

lets pretend that the avg. stack is 60xbb and the chipleader has 220xbb.
blinds are 500/1k and we are in 16th place out of 19.

[poormanbilly]

First off, I don't consider 20BB "very low". Again, it depends on what the stacks look like at your table, but you can still play poker without doing the push and pray.

That being said, I would open push against the short stack's blinds when I have any pocket pair or big ace in late position. If I've done that a few times, I'd probably open push AA/KK from any position. Other than that, I play my normal game until situations are desperate.

[darinvg]

I can't think of a spot where I'd ever push more than 15 BB.

[easy_as_pie]

really? i can think of 1239 spots where i would push with 15xbb. What are you waiting for?
How many times did you stick around as a short or medium stack in an MTT to bubble the FT or barely make the FT and then go out 9th when your push with AA, AK, JJ etc. and the big stack gladly calls you with 33 or J10 getting 4/1 and busts you?

Not to mention the situations that i mentioned in my first post (SB vs BB, BB vs SB and or button that limped, Button or LP vs the blinds...list goes on)

[easy_as_pie]

really? i can think of 1239 spots where i would push with 15xbb. What are you waiting for?
How many times did you stick around as a short or medium stack in an MTT to bubble the FT or barely make the FT and then go out 9th when your push with AA, AK, JJ etc. and the big stack gladly calls you with 33 or J10 getting 4/1 and busts you?

Not to mention the situations that i mentioned in my first post (SB vs BB, BB vs SB and or button that limped, Button or LP vs the blinds...list goes on)

anyways. this is interesting. Apprently, you guys are against pushing AI in these situations. I will try it out this week but I still stand by my play.