Another Blind Steal Question

[snickers99]

Although I've said this before, I need to either shit or get off the pot...ie, learn the game or give up. Been having a rough go of it lately and I really should be posting more hands to get feedback. Sooooo, should I have raised here to try to steal the blinds? Not much info on the 2 blinds...played 82 hands w/Iron, 109 w/hamms....

POKERSTARS GAME #4585217190: HOLD'EM LIMIT ($1/$2) - 2006/04/10 - 18:36:11 (ET)
Table 'Robeson' 10-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Coffeehouse ($78.50 in chips)
Seat 2: fivecent5 ($46.25 in chips)
Seat 3: FrankKy ($24.75 in chips)
Seat 4: boot9094 ($39 in chips)
Seat 5: cardshark406 ($8.25 in chips)
Seat 6: McMofo ($32 in chips)
Seat 7: RAD764 ($37 in chips)
Seat 8: FBT99 ($77 in chips)
Seat 9: IronDoc ($48.75 in chips) <-- VIP 20, PFR 6.9, Agg 3.33
Seat 10: hammsrone ($58 in chips) <-- VIP 31, PFR 5.17, Agg 1.29
IronDoc: posts small blind $0.50
hammsrone: posts big blind $1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to FBT99 [:9c: ]
Coffeehouse: folds
fivecent5: folds
FrankKy: folds
boot9094: folds
cardshark406: folds
McMofo: folds
RAD764: folds
FBT99: folds
IronDoc: raises $1 to $2
hammsrone: calls $1

(I'll probably end up asking some questions I should know the answer to...bear with me.)

[bigdil511]

Folding isn't bad, but I might try a steal here.

[ugignadl]

I fold here, but am by no means a good limit player.

[caffiend]

It would depend on IronDonk, really. I might actually limp if I thought he'd raise. That's not a bad hand to be holding in position on an aggressive player, or in an unraised pot. If he's prone to folding the small blind then I'd consider stealing with it.

The surprising thing to me is the table selection. Maybe it varies with the time of day, but I rarely see any loose games running at the full 1/2 tables on Stars. I always end up playing shorthanded there.

[snickers99]

I think IronDoc might have folded, but I think hammsrone would have called being he's in the BB and is semi loose. Here's my thinking...please let me know if it's at least in the ballpark of being correct. Keep in mind, we're talking 1/2 limit here. My hand is suited, and connected...some possibilities. If either player calls, they probably have at least one face card. If the flop doesn't hit me, but is all low and checked to me, I bet out? If the flop doesn't hit me, but there's at least one face card and it's checked to me, I check....if there's a bet before me, I fold? If the flop hits me, I know it's a 'it depends' situation and I'm not going to go into all the possibilities. Even the scenarios I discuss are 'it depends'.

FYI, I was starting to hit hands and play pretty tight. If they were paying attention, this might factor in.

I think I need to start stealing blinds more often. I think I'm letting a lot of opportunties pass me by.

I know you guys won't ridicule me...well, about poker anyway...so I'm hoping to post more hands that I misplayed terribly. I like to think that a lot of my losing sessions are just bad luck (guy hitting his gutshot, etc...I do review my hands and it does seem I'm ahead a lot of the time), but I'm sure there's times when I'm putting myself into these situations that can be avoided.

[puckhead23]

I think this is a perfect opportunity to attempt a steal here. If it works, collect the blinds and move on. If not, you will see a flop. A suited connector in position is a nice hand because, if you connect with the flop, you can win a nice pot. From an implied odds perspective, I don't think folding is correct. Also, if you have been playing tight and folding a lot of hands on the button, you might be underestimating the respect a raise and a c-bet from you might receive.

[caffiend]

If the flop doesn't hit me, but is all low and checked to me, I bet out? If the flop doesn't hit me, but there's at least one face card and it's checked to me, I check....if there's a bet before me, I fold?

That would be the conventional thinking, but you don't need to do that. You can also check behind on a low flop and see four cards. That will often let you pick up a backdoor flush draw or something. With the right two runners you can really bushwhack someone.

I'd be pretty inclined to bet a face card if he checked, and give it up if he called. Chances are it's the wrong face card and you may end up pushing him out. And unlike three small cards, you're unlikely to extract anything from him if you do make something later in the hand. He's not going to be as reckless with a big pair on the flop.

There are only two things I always want to avoid in steal situations, people who go to war over small pots and showdowns with crap. I would junk T9s in a heartbeat against someone who overdefends. If I know I'm getting raised or check raised on any flop, and probably capping the turn if I stay in then I'm waiting for a hand with some showdown value. And if I know I'm getting called all the way to the river no matter what, I'm waiting for something that doesn't look too bad.

The worst thing I remember getting caught with was T5s. After you've showed down something like that you need to tighten up a bit. The odd times I do hit trash or miracle someone I count it an advertising play and bunker down a bit.

[snickers99]

Thanks for the info, guys. BTW, Iron had KJo. So, he would have called. The flop was all clubs, w/a K. Fuck. Would have flopped a flush and he would have had TP. But he might have had the jack of clubs, which I would have been screwed if another club fell. In the hand, he bet and hammsrone folded, so I don't know what he had. Iron showed his hand after the play. I don't have the exact details as I'm at work now.

I know the odds of flopping a flush are long, but it got me to thinking maybe I should attempt a steal with suited connectors under the right circumstances.

There are only two things I always want to avoid in steal situations, people who go to war over small pots...

This is exactly why I usually don't try to steal.

[caffiend]

It's very situational in limit games. I'll steal anywhere from 0-100% of the time depending on who's in the blind. T9s has some high card value to it though, you're generally in good shape if you pair since most people defend with big/little combinations.

He may not have called either, so don't beat yourself up. With KJo he could've stuffed a raise in your face instead. That'd be about the worst outcome because you know you're behind and need to hit the flop.

Occasionally in tight games you do better spreading your steals out across a few seats to the right of the button. If you raise T9s three off the blinds have a lot harder time swinging back or calling than if you're right on the button. And if you do get called, it isn't a total disaster.

[alanpsych]

I'd say that in a shorthanded game, you don't want to pass up steal opportunities such as this, but in a full game, there's less pressure and you can affort to wait for better hands. Against passive blinds, it's a great idea. Your opponents were pretty aggro though.

The main question is what to do when you pair up. You're going to be in a position of wondering if your 2nd pair is good, and it'll cost you to find out.

[lfeg]

I concur with the steal opportunities in shorthanded games especially against the passive/weak guys. But if they are aggro you have to wait for the right opportunity to chop them and score. I try not to stay in short handed games that long b/c it can cost you a lot as mentioned by Alanpsyche w/ catching 2nd pair, but I'll stay in it if my stats on the guys give me +EV to keep playing.