I'm weak/tight, right?

[faquewdikhed]

Does anyone here :

a.) Think scotty didn't have a boat at the end, or AQ/AJ

b.) Think scotty is crazy if he didnt have hands listed above

[happycamper374]

Put money in while you are ahead.

This move was supposed to be a bit of psychological (sp) warfare. I think I acted a bit too fast and didnt think about a lot of the draws available, but I dont believe it was that horrible a move based on my thought process.

or I've pegged you as incredibly weak tight.

If this is true I will cry myself to sleep. And then force myself to work towards correcting this. EDIT:(but based on the way I played this hand its possible)

KQ is a hand that I wasnt even considering. I dont think it is technically "correct" to call my bet on the turn, and I had scotty pegged as maybe giving me a little respect by folding this here. (I could be very very wrong. I have't played with the forum guys a whole lot and when I do, its not necessarily my best.)

I think not being aggressive was a mistake. I had assumed I had the best hand and then was uneasy about scotty's betting patterns and lost my nerve on the river.

[bobcorn]

I got 2 agree w/ faq, AK or A7 make the most sense for scotty to have. I think he might have slowplayed a set of 7's or K's on the flop and A2-AQ probably wouldve pushed the turn.

[scotty1139]

*********** # 38 **************
PokerStars Game #3165283731: Tournament #15558977, Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2005/11/26 - 16:19:06 (ET)
Table '15558977 2' Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: mervhage (2030 in chips)
Seat 2: elleron (3195 in chips)
Seat 6: Eruu (1040 in chips)
Seat 7: fishinghooks (1480 in chips)
Seat 8: Phaedrus374 (1290 in chips)
Seat 9: pngn (1465 in chips)
Phaedrus374: posts small blind 15
pngn: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to fishinghooks [Ac Kd]
mervhage: folds
elleron: folds
Eruu: folds
fishinghooks: raises 60 to 90

The fact that I'm on the button makes this look like a normal blind steal. At 3xBB, I'm not going to be put on a small range of hands just yet.

elleron said, "Are you a scientist?"
Phaedrus374: calls 75
pngn: folds

*** FLOP *** [7d Kc Ad]

Obviously I'm way ahead on this flop. I'm not concerned at all about the flush draw, and there really isn't a viable straight draw, but with 2 overcards, I'm going to throw out an amount that looks like a continuation bet. I like to use non-slider bets in both situations of strength and weakness, but my only real concern is on my timing. I'm careful to make it seem like I'm calculating an amount that is unprofitable to call

Phaedrus374: checks
fishinghooks: bets 130
Phaedrus374: calls 130

*** TURN *** [7d Kc Ad] [Ah]

Getting called on the flop doesn't convince me he has an ace, but it does indicate that he's likely to use the turn to find out where he stands. Since I have the nuts, and a lock on the win, my mistake here is not putting enough effort into thinking about what hand my opponent has. A raise might get some weak aces to fold, but I wouldn't expect A9 or above to get away from this hand. I opt to flat call, which offers the potential for making more on the river, but what I don't like about this call is that it seems to give away that I'm quite strong.

mervhage said, "lol"
Phaedrus374: bets 300
fishinghooks: calls 300

*** RIVER *** [7d Kc Ad Ah] [2c]

Phaedrus374: checks
fishinghooks: bets 960 and is all-in
Phaedrus374 said, "well ****"

Ok, so I have 2 options, value bet, or push all-in to feign a desperation bluff. I want to extract chips, but there's an upside to making the allin play, which I'll explain in a moment. There is 1070 in this pot. I could make a value bet of 400-500, which I think is going to get called about 50% of the time if the opponent has an ace. Instead, I opted for the allin (a pot size bet) to make it seem like I was trying to push him out and a smell like a desperation move. I expect that at this type of table, it'll probably succeed less than half the time, as I think my opponent is capable of laying down a weak ace. Even if my opponent folds and I don't get paid off, it's going to sow some seeds of doubt on later hands. I thought that advantage might be worth giving up some value here. I'm still not sure if I made the optimal move. I'm leaning towards "no."

Phaedrus374: folds

fishinghooks collected 1070 from pot
fishinghooks: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1070 | Rake 0
Board [7d Kc Ad Ah 2c]
Seat 1: mervhage folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: elleron folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Eruu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: fishinghooks (button) collected (1070)
Seat 8: Phaedrus374 (small blind) folded on the River
Seat 9: pngn (big blind) folded before Flop

[mattaca]

Scotty, nice sum-up of your thoughts on the hand.

The one place I think you hit the nail on the head was the allin bet on the river. Its a great move very your typical online opponent, where almost all of them are calling, but against a stronger player (as everyone is at our tourneys) I may have tried a 300 bet for 2 reasons:

a. value as I doubt he could have laid this down for that bet.
b. possibility that he thinks you have a weaker A and comes over the top on you.

It still was a great laydown, not sure what I would have done, but the allin bet made it easier to let it go.

Just some thoughts.

[happycamper374]

Scotty, I would have called a T300 sized bet on the end, but not much bigger without going into the tank and maybe folding.

smell like a desperation move

I know I'm saying this after you told us your hand, but for what its worth, I didnt think you would make a "dark tunnel" type desparation bet. However, I could be biased because now I know what you had.

All in all nice hand. You played it very well up to the river, where there's room for discussion; I think your river play would get a call a good percentage of the time so it was a decent move. Had you checked the flop I would have been suspicious. I was only suspicious after the turn call. Very nicely done sir!

[mervhage]

"Honey, honey, I was supposed to go broke with that hand! They forgot one thing, I can dodge bullets baby."

Nice laydown.

[happycamper374]

hehehe....thanks.

Man, I've been watching this thread like a hawk. I'm glad I've gotten this "into" a discussion. A lot of the time I lose interest. (maybe its that ADD. I dont have it, but i think it rubs off on me sometimes.)

[alanpsych]

I'm thinking A7 or a bluff. He might check AK on the flop...

On the turn, he's content to call, as he's got the nuts. The all in river is what throws me, doesn't look like a value bet at all, but the pot is so large, anthing smaller looks pretty obvious.

[faquewdikhed]

So what does this thread teach us?

Do not call raises early with marginal hands; you might hit your hand and that can be the worst thing to happen.

[scotty1139]

I don't think it was a mistake for him to call from the blind with AT. Against most of the hands that I could be raising with, it's in good or great shape. He could've played it a couple ways, but what counts is that he lost much less than most would, and that he made the right read at the right time.

[faquewdikhed]

I think a call from the blind may be even worse here, because hero (happy) is guaranteed to be out of position on the flop, with a marginal hand.

Furthermore, there isnt squat in the pot and there is no immediate need for chips.

I just don't see a point in playing it in any everyday situation. Is there a good chance hero will win a big pot with this hand? Most likely not. Even if villain has KK, hero is not going to make any money off of him if an A flops. Same thing if villain has any pocket pair, and doesnt set. If you share an A, you would definitely not want to have AT in most scenarios.

Basically my question... What could villain have in this scenario that hero would like to be up against? KQ? I doubt villain pays him off with KQ when an A flops. The only way would be a 2 pair Vs. straight scenario, but that goes both ways. Ax? possibly.


*Obviously* this was a forum tourney and can be more "read - dependent". It is also a lot more fun to loosen up a bit. As far as long term winning poker though, I don't see any benefit from playing in this hand from hero's position.


I think this is a good discussion and am anxious to hear yours and others replies. Lots of great info and situation analysis.

[happycamper374]

sniff sniff.....Faq, you just dont like me.....sniff

[faquewdikhed]

lol I like you and everyone here a lot.

At least I let you be HERO

Scotty got labeled as the bad guy!

[mattaca]

Basically my question... What could villain have in this scenario that hero would like to be up against? KQ? I doubt villain pays him off with KQ when an A flops. The only way would be a 2 pair Vs. straight scenario, but that goes both ways. Ax? possibly.

In a steal situation, I think there is a very wide range of hands here that Scotty could have raised from the button. Any Ax is possible in my mind. Then he wouldn't let it go on the flop or the turn.

Unless of course, Scotty is a rock and only raises premium hands.