Playing AJo early position
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Playing AJo early position
by beezee » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:50 pm
PP
Playing AJo early position
« on: May 18th, 2005, 2:43pm »
Sorry no HH, PP screwed up my e-mail address.
10/1, 25/50 blinds, my stack ~850
I am dealt AJo and I limp. The chip leader on the button with ~2000 chips makes a min raise. That looked like either he had a pair or Ax. If the pair had been above TT, I am sure he would have raised big. Same for AQ, AK. Everybody folded to me. I thought he is going to call me to the river no matter what, I had two options.
1. Go all-in
2. fold
I chose the first option and was out in 2 secs. He had 99, I got my ace on the flop, but he got his 9 on the turn too.
I have seen MJ fold AJo early position in the 10/1 marathon. I thought that was too tight. Now I know why it makes sense to fold it.
What do you guys think? How ya all play this?
One thing that frustrates me the most is folding the best hand. Short stack goes all-in with A4, I fold AT, some idiot calls with KT and gives all the chips to the short stack. This happens many times and I suddenly find myself short stacked. If I take a small risk like above, I am out.
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #1 on: May 18th, 2005, 3:19pm »
Why isn't there a 3. Call?
If you really want to move all in, a stop-go might be good.
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #2 on: May 18th, 2005, 4:49pm »
I had a feeling that he would call me down to the river whether an ace hit or not (too typical of the big stacks at 10/1). In retrospect, If I had bet on the flop with my pair of aces, he would have still called me down.
I could have played it like this. Call his 50$ raise. Bet the flop say 200$ (2/3 of the pot). He calls it. Now what do I do at the turn or river? Should I check it to him on the turn? He is going to bet the turn whether he hit his trips or not. If I bet a good chunk like 200$ more, I am already pot committed.
So, my reasoning is that, put the decision on him pre-flop when I have the best of it. A few times I played AK like this, I got the better part of it.
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #3 on: May 18th, 2005, 4:52pm »
Stop-go: Move all in on the flop. Then he's really hard pressed to call with the A showing.
Or you can try check-raising all in if you think you J kicker is good.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2005, 4:53pm by Biggle10 »
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #4 on: May 18th, 2005, 5:04pm »
You are right. I guess that's the only way to play this, if I call it. In retrospect, that seems to be the right choice. But, its difficult to just go all-in on the flop with AJ. He might just think you are bluffing with a smaller pair.
In any case, I am more comfortable folding or raising all-in pre-flop, but that's just me.
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #5 on: May 18th, 2005, 7:15pm »
on May 18th, 2005, 5:04pm, ppadala wrote:
In any case, I am more comfortable folding or raising all-in pre-flop, but that's just me.
This is probably the better route if your opponent is tight preflop. However, you DO gain some fold equity with the stop go.
For example, suppose he has AK. He will likely call your all-in bet and you're in bad shape. If however, you stop-go him and the board is rags, he has a much harder time calling with AK.
MJ
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #6 on: May 18th, 2005, 8:54pm »
I'm not so sure I like the all-in or nothing talk given that the blinds are 25/50, you got min raised to 100 and now you're sitting on a decision to push another 850 chips into the pot or fold?
Calling is a very, very available option here. Pushing all-in or folding here takes as much finess as opening a door with a battering ram.
Don't be scared to play the flop - that's where skill will prevail more often than not over your opponent. If you think he's going to call you to the river with anything, then a call is HUGE in terms of your implied +EV.
Think about it - if you're 2.1:1 to flop a pair (30% of the time) with AJ, you can assume you're probably going to make a strong hand should you pair. Probably the best hand. Now if your opponent is going to call ANYTHING to the river, you are getting insane overlay on calling and seeing if you pair. If not, that's easy to toss since your opponent is apparently an unbluffable goon. So, you've got YOUR_STACK + POT:CALL odds, which is 850+225:50 = 1075:50 = 21:1 implied pot odds when your odds of hitting are 2:1.
That is a 10:1 overlay on your hand for flat calling.
No reason to push in this situation in the least.
dday44
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #7 on: May 18th, 2005, 8:59pm »
Blinds were way too low to be considering pushing all-in with AJo- If called, at best you are 50-50 and at worst you are destroyed(20-80).
If you call and hit an ace, then you will be playing hope poker - i.e. I hope he doesn't have AQ, AK or Ax where x equals one of other two cards on flop. This is a trouble hand- he has position and chips on you. AJo early position is a long term loser at that blind level.
Doyle Brunson writes a lot more about trouble hands- his advice is obviously worth learning from- read his super system chapter - then read it again...stop, then repeat.
Doyle has also been quoted as saying that he has lost more money with AQ than any other - I'm sure he like AJo even less.
EP at those blinds, I drop.
All the best!
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #8 on: May 18th, 2005, 9:09pm »
I agree that calling is best, but was exploring the 'if you must go all in'
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #9 on: May 18th, 2005, 10:01pm »
MJ's analysis has given me some very good insight into the situation. I will try calling and see how it works.
Thanks guys !
MJ
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #10 on: May 19th, 2005, 8:42am »
1) Oh, wasn't referring to you biggle, but the original post.
2) pp, yeah, calling is ok - but the AJ in EP is still not ok. You don't want to be doing that a lot.
mervhage
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #11 on: May 19th, 2005, 9:03am »
Agreed, AJo is exactly that, a jack off (not ajo the member, he's cool Cheesy ). I'd definitely fold here UTG with this stupid damn hand. BUT, if I call his min raise, you'd have to play it strongly on the flop and you get yourself in all types of shit. Therefore, drop it preflop.
Did I mention you probably should not even play this hand given these circumstances?
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2005, 9:04am by mervhage »
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #12 on: May 19th, 2005, 10:33am »
Yep, got it Merv Smiley I folded AJ EP in a tourney and promptly got placed !
scottie_g.
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #13 on: May 20th, 2005, 1:21pm »
Quote:
Doyle has also been quoted as saying that he has lost more money with AQ than any other - I'm sure he like AJo even less.
After recording about 7,000 ring game hands, I can attest to that. A-Q is bad news folks... esp if you hit an A or a Q on the flop.
I noticed that I tend to play this hand too strongly... I'll hit a Queen on the flop (top pair, ace kicker, no draws on the board). I'll bet it, maybe even call a re-raise, and it turns out the guy has a set or 2 pair.
Be carefull about playing this hand to strongly. It is very vulerable and deceiving. If you are up against A-K you are dominated, as well as Q-Q, K-K, A-A, and you are only a coinflop against hands like J-J, T-T.
Here are the top 3 hands I have lost the most money on in ring games (low limit):
A-Qs, 7-7, A-Jo - all hands that may look good, but will end up being the 2nd best hand and that means losing lots of money. This is something i am working on Grin
The same would apply to tournaments - Don't put yourself in a position where you could be dominated.
goofyballer
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #14 on: May 20th, 2005, 2:49pm »
Is it really that often you find yourself up against AA/KK/QQ/AK when you have AQ? If you hit an ace or queen on the flop, I view it as just as good as hitting a king with AK. You have TPTK, it's extremely unlikely that anyone has a better hand than you at that point, and even if someone does have an overpair or AK, you'll probably hear from them and be able to slow down a little.
It's not any more likely for someone to hit two pair or a set when you have AQ compared to how much they'll do it when they have AK.
scottie_g.
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #15 on: May 20th, 2005, 3:22pm »
Quote:
It's not any more likely for someone to hit two pair or a set when you have AQ compared to how much they'll do it when they have AK.
Obviously, I know that. I was simply giving an example of how I sometimes play A-Q as if it were always the best hand.
My point was to be weary of 2nd best hands, which is a big losing proposition.
Playing AJo early position
« on: May 18th, 2005, 2:43pm »
Sorry no HH, PP screwed up my e-mail address.
10/1, 25/50 blinds, my stack ~850
I am dealt AJo and I limp. The chip leader on the button with ~2000 chips makes a min raise. That looked like either he had a pair or Ax. If the pair had been above TT, I am sure he would have raised big. Same for AQ, AK. Everybody folded to me. I thought he is going to call me to the river no matter what, I had two options.
1. Go all-in
2. fold
I chose the first option and was out in 2 secs. He had 99, I got my ace on the flop, but he got his 9 on the turn too.
I have seen MJ fold AJo early position in the 10/1 marathon. I thought that was too tight. Now I know why it makes sense to fold it.
What do you guys think? How ya all play this?
One thing that frustrates me the most is folding the best hand. Short stack goes all-in with A4, I fold AT, some idiot calls with KT and gives all the chips to the short stack. This happens many times and I suddenly find myself short stacked. If I take a small risk like above, I am out.
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #1 on: May 18th, 2005, 3:19pm »
Why isn't there a 3. Call?
If you really want to move all in, a stop-go might be good.
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #2 on: May 18th, 2005, 4:49pm »
I had a feeling that he would call me down to the river whether an ace hit or not (too typical of the big stacks at 10/1). In retrospect, If I had bet on the flop with my pair of aces, he would have still called me down.
I could have played it like this. Call his 50$ raise. Bet the flop say 200$ (2/3 of the pot). He calls it. Now what do I do at the turn or river? Should I check it to him on the turn? He is going to bet the turn whether he hit his trips or not. If I bet a good chunk like 200$ more, I am already pot committed.
So, my reasoning is that, put the decision on him pre-flop when I have the best of it. A few times I played AK like this, I got the better part of it.
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #3 on: May 18th, 2005, 4:52pm »
Stop-go: Move all in on the flop. Then he's really hard pressed to call with the A showing.
Or you can try check-raising all in if you think you J kicker is good.
« Last Edit: May 18th, 2005, 4:53pm by Biggle10 »
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #4 on: May 18th, 2005, 5:04pm »
You are right. I guess that's the only way to play this, if I call it. In retrospect, that seems to be the right choice. But, its difficult to just go all-in on the flop with AJ. He might just think you are bluffing with a smaller pair.
In any case, I am more comfortable folding or raising all-in pre-flop, but that's just me.
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #5 on: May 18th, 2005, 7:15pm »
on May 18th, 2005, 5:04pm, ppadala wrote:
In any case, I am more comfortable folding or raising all-in pre-flop, but that's just me.
This is probably the better route if your opponent is tight preflop. However, you DO gain some fold equity with the stop go.
For example, suppose he has AK. He will likely call your all-in bet and you're in bad shape. If however, you stop-go him and the board is rags, he has a much harder time calling with AK.
MJ
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #6 on: May 18th, 2005, 8:54pm »
I'm not so sure I like the all-in or nothing talk given that the blinds are 25/50, you got min raised to 100 and now you're sitting on a decision to push another 850 chips into the pot or fold?
Calling is a very, very available option here. Pushing all-in or folding here takes as much finess as opening a door with a battering ram.
Don't be scared to play the flop - that's where skill will prevail more often than not over your opponent. If you think he's going to call you to the river with anything, then a call is HUGE in terms of your implied +EV.
Think about it - if you're 2.1:1 to flop a pair (30% of the time) with AJ, you can assume you're probably going to make a strong hand should you pair. Probably the best hand. Now if your opponent is going to call ANYTHING to the river, you are getting insane overlay on calling and seeing if you pair. If not, that's easy to toss since your opponent is apparently an unbluffable goon. So, you've got YOUR_STACK + POT:CALL odds, which is 850+225:50 = 1075:50 = 21:1 implied pot odds when your odds of hitting are 2:1.
That is a 10:1 overlay on your hand for flat calling.
No reason to push in this situation in the least.
dday44
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #7 on: May 18th, 2005, 8:59pm »
Blinds were way too low to be considering pushing all-in with AJo- If called, at best you are 50-50 and at worst you are destroyed(20-80).
If you call and hit an ace, then you will be playing hope poker - i.e. I hope he doesn't have AQ, AK or Ax where x equals one of other two cards on flop. This is a trouble hand- he has position and chips on you. AJo early position is a long term loser at that blind level.
Doyle Brunson writes a lot more about trouble hands- his advice is obviously worth learning from- read his super system chapter - then read it again...stop, then repeat.
Doyle has also been quoted as saying that he has lost more money with AQ than any other - I'm sure he like AJo even less.
EP at those blinds, I drop.
All the best!
Biggle10
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #8 on: May 18th, 2005, 9:09pm »
I agree that calling is best, but was exploring the 'if you must go all in'
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #9 on: May 18th, 2005, 10:01pm »
MJ's analysis has given me some very good insight into the situation. I will try calling and see how it works.
Thanks guys !
MJ
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #10 on: May 19th, 2005, 8:42am »
1) Oh, wasn't referring to you biggle, but the original post.
2) pp, yeah, calling is ok - but the AJ in EP is still not ok. You don't want to be doing that a lot.
mervhage
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #11 on: May 19th, 2005, 9:03am »
Agreed, AJo is exactly that, a jack off (not ajo the member, he's cool Cheesy ). I'd definitely fold here UTG with this stupid damn hand. BUT, if I call his min raise, you'd have to play it strongly on the flop and you get yourself in all types of shit. Therefore, drop it preflop.
Did I mention you probably should not even play this hand given these circumstances?
« Last Edit: May 19th, 2005, 9:04am by mervhage »
PP
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #12 on: May 19th, 2005, 10:33am »
Yep, got it Merv Smiley I folded AJ EP in a tourney and promptly got placed !
scottie_g.
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #13 on: May 20th, 2005, 1:21pm »
Quote:
Doyle has also been quoted as saying that he has lost more money with AQ than any other - I'm sure he like AJo even less.
After recording about 7,000 ring game hands, I can attest to that. A-Q is bad news folks... esp if you hit an A or a Q on the flop.
I noticed that I tend to play this hand too strongly... I'll hit a Queen on the flop (top pair, ace kicker, no draws on the board). I'll bet it, maybe even call a re-raise, and it turns out the guy has a set or 2 pair.
Be carefull about playing this hand to strongly. It is very vulerable and deceiving. If you are up against A-K you are dominated, as well as Q-Q, K-K, A-A, and you are only a coinflop against hands like J-J, T-T.
Here are the top 3 hands I have lost the most money on in ring games (low limit):
A-Qs, 7-7, A-Jo - all hands that may look good, but will end up being the 2nd best hand and that means losing lots of money. This is something i am working on Grin
The same would apply to tournaments - Don't put yourself in a position where you could be dominated.
goofyballer
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #14 on: May 20th, 2005, 2:49pm »
Is it really that often you find yourself up against AA/KK/QQ/AK when you have AQ? If you hit an ace or queen on the flop, I view it as just as good as hitting a king with AK. You have TPTK, it's extremely unlikely that anyone has a better hand than you at that point, and even if someone does have an overpair or AK, you'll probably hear from them and be able to slow down a little.
It's not any more likely for someone to hit two pair or a set when you have AQ compared to how much they'll do it when they have AK.
scottie_g.
Re: Playing AJo early position
« Reply #15 on: May 20th, 2005, 3:22pm »
Quote:
It's not any more likely for someone to hit two pair or a set when you have AQ compared to how much they'll do it when they have AK.
Obviously, I know that. I was simply giving an example of how I sometimes play A-Q as if it were always the best hand.
My point was to be weary of 2nd best hands, which is a big losing proposition.
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