PFR TT, JJ?

[dave134]

I have been PFR'ing TT and JJ fairly frequently in my low limit games, but I'm starting to think this is a losing strategy. There are just too many fishy players at this table who will play any JQKA card causing me to waste money when they hit their pair. I'm getting sick of seeing hands where I PFR TT only to lose to something like J2 when a J hits on the river. Thoughts?

[biggle10]

Is this full ring or 6 max? Are you raising regardless of position or action before you?

[dave134]

It's full ring. I won't absolutely always raise with these, but I do quite frequently. I'm just fishing to see if there are any general thoughts on this as I don't actually have my stats and can't say for certain I'm losing or winning on these hands...it's just something I have started to think about.

[ugignadl]

Do you understand what Biggle means by position? You should not always raise TT or JJ. You shouldn't even always raise KK and AA (hey, sometimes it's not possible to raise ).

[puckhead23]

You shouldn't even always raise KK and AA (hey, sometimes it's not possible to raise ).

This attitude is an absolute money maker for me. Last night I was dealt 66 on the button in a $3/$6 limit game. I call on the button and there was a 6 way pot. Board was uncoordinated and it was checked around. I hit my set on the turn. All four suits on the board, so no flush possibilities. I start a raising war with UTG, and the turn is capped. Solid player, and there were no apparent straights (a couple of oddball possibilities like T8 perhaps) so I think my hand is good and I'm up against 2 pair. My only real problem is if he's got a better set. River is a blank, UTG checks, I bet, he calls. UTG had AA.

IMHO, it is NEVER PROPER to not raise AA or KK, unless you are playing at such high stakes that you must be tricky in order to survive. At the limits we play, I disagree with limping premium hands completely. As this guy found out, when you think you're trapping someone you might end up trapping yourself. Had he bet the flop, I would have certainly folded (there were 2 overcards on that flop), and he would have won the pot.

[ugignadl]

That's a good post puckhead and I don't disagree with any of it.

But my smiley meant that I am (trying) being facetious; referring to calling a bigger bet than your stack in particular, and trying hard not to allude to tricky play (which I am not good at). As you so rightly say, a poor player attempting a tricky play can dig a big hole.

The point I was trying to make is that there are no hard and fast rules to always follow in poker that ensure optimal play.

[snickers99]

I tend not to raise with 1010 or JJ for the same reason you stated. Especially in LP with multiple limpers as I figure multiple people have at least a Q or higher. I generally treat them as low pocket pairs...try to get in cheap to see the flop and play from there. Low pocket pairs, no set, no bet. But JJ and 1010 with all undercards on the flop, I'm going nuts until a scare card and/or scary board and/or someone gives me reason not to. Not saying this is right...just saying it's what I do. I'd be interested in other people's thoughts. As always, things change if you're in LP with no limpers, etc.

[caffiend]

The key is having a plan before you do anything. If you're going to bet or raise the flop then you should raise preflop to define your hand. If you're going to fold unimproved, raising preflop is a relative waste. I'll raise them behind multiple limpers if I know my raise is going to buy me the button and a free card. I'll also just call if it looks like I'll be stuck in the middle and need a set to proceed.

[puckhead23]

But my smiley meant that I am (trying) being facetious; referring to calling a bigger bet than your stack in particular, and trying hard not to allude to tricky play (which I am not good at).

I wasn't sure (I was hoping for facetiousness), but I see so much of this that I felt compelled to share.

[biggle10]

My anecdotal numbers:
2/4 and 3/6 full.

Any PF raise:
JJ - 172 times 0.71BB
TT - 110 times 0.83BB
99 - 119 times 0.79BB

No raise (small sample sizes here):
JJ- 2 times 0.63BB
TT- 22 times 1.67BB
99- 28 times 0.70BB

[lfeg]

I'm with Snickers99 on this one. With low pocket pairs I'm aiming for set unless I'm in a position of having overpairs. If thats the case I'm betting strong not giving a player a free card to catch their higher pair.

[stewart]

There aren't many flops you can play JJ TT confidently into and any one with two overcards who was prepared to call a raise with will call again and probably see the river to hit a card. In a loose game these hands almost never win when over cards hit unless you improve to a set, if the game is tight and you can drasticly cut the field with a raise they become alot stronger. Limp with them and play them no over cards or no set no bet. I play TT JJ in a conservative way and they have a MUCH higher ev than QQ does for me. In loose games even QQ has to be folded fairly regularly to stop the losses bleeding away the profits.

[bigdil511]

I tend not to raise with 1010 or JJ for the same reason you stated. Especially in LP with multiple limpers as I figure multiple people have at least a Q or higher. I generally treat them as low pocket pairs...try to get in cheap to see the flop and play from there. Low pocket pairs, no set, no bet. But JJ and 1010 with all undercards on the flop, I'm going nuts until a scare card and/or scary board and/or someone gives me reason not to. Not saying this is right...just saying it's what I do. I'd be interested in other people's thoughts. As always, things change if you're in LP with no limpers, etc.

I think this definately has a lot to do with aggression factor and the types of people who are going to be in the hand with you. If in LP and say 2 limpers in front I am definately going to raise JJ TT here and take the lead in the hand, if they had something all that great then they probably would have raised to begin with, plus I am an aggressive player and I like to be checked to on the flop. I think there is probably a small argument for both but I in general like to raise, I think what it really boils down to is your play after the flop, because if you raise many players tend not to want to give up their hands when it is obvious they are beat. It holds the same principles when you have a big unpaired hand like AK, you raise to take control of the hand (and it is almost certainly the best hand if limpers are in front of you if not about 50/50 to all smaller PP) you raise to take control and to let the others know you have a strong hand, and if the flop comes all low cards you might get a bit more respect of having a big hand to begin with like JJ-AA, and when you lead out with a bet a lot of the times you will pick up the pot right there. But there are times when raising 99 or TT and there are 5-6 limpers and you are in the blinds (OOP) you might want to relax and see the texture of the flop before making a move. This also has a lot to do with the table you are on, is it passive? Aggressive? Tight? Solid? Loose? So usually if the table is passive an aggressive strategy is gonna win you more money, and at an aggressive table a much tighter approach is prudent, usually the best way to play a table is the opposite of the current dynamics of it. Say you have a really tight/conservative table you will win much more by raising with these hands because there will be much fewer people in the pot, if you are at an aggressive table and a lot of players in every pot and almost every pot is contested, taking a more conservative approach is probably the best way to go.