Overcards
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Overcards
by beezee » Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:43 pm
apokerlyptic
Overcards
« on: Apr 27th, 2005, 3:46am »
It seems that every time I get AK or AQ these days, the flop comes all rags - and, to be honest, I never know quite what to do (nearly always, of course, having raised pre-flop).
The new playing guide on this site (excellent, by the way) suggests one should fold to any bet if the flop misses you entirely. So, if the board comes three rags with no obvious straight or flush draws, should one fold AK / AQ? What if there is a potential draw? Should one be more inclined to stay in?
What if it's checked to you (say one to three other players in the pot) - check or bet? Checking is practically an invitation to opponents to bluff or semi-bluff if a highish card doesn't come on the turn. Betting commits you even further to the pot if everyone calls.
I know the answers to these questions always begin 'It depends...', but I'm looking for general thoughts that would be applicable to a typical semi-loose ring game where you may not have a great read on your opponents. I'm also aware of the advice in the Miller/Sklansky low-limit book, but, frankly, I'm not totally bought in to the redeeming power of backdoor flushes and straights (I can never make a flush or straight when I've got a proper draw!), though I see the advantage of having fewer opponents.
Thanks for any observations.
goofyballer
Overcards
« Reply #1 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 4:17am »
I'll check the flop if my AK/AQ doesn't hit a rag board. I'll call a flop bet to see if I improve on the turn, and then fold otherwise, unless I have reason to believe (against tight opponents maybe) that the flop didn't help anyone else either and my AK is the best hand.
Sure, checking screams "my AK missed", but so what? They'd call you down anyway if you bet and you were trying to represent a high pocket pair. When I first got PokerTracker, I noticed that I lost more money with AK than any other hand. I'm not sure if i'm back in the black with it yet but I'm certainly doing much better since I stopped playing it like it was the nuts all the time, even when the flop missed me.
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2005, 4:18am by goofyballer »
BigDil511
Re: Overcards
« Reply #2 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 5:15am »
I tend to agree with goofy, I believe way too many people hang onto this hand when it completely misses and its obvious that you are behind in the hand. Although if pot odds are good enough drawing for overcards and/or nut flush or something like that can be ok to check/call in my opinion. Sorry I cant be more helpful but I really believe if you havent hit your hand in any way check/fold is in order.
Just my opinion.
MJ
Re: Overcards
« Reply #3 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 10:14am »
Depends how many people are in the pot after you've raised. If it's small enough you think that some betting on the flop and turn can get'em out, then I say go for it.
In any other situation, I say it's a no-go unless you got pot odds. The problem with AK and pot odds on the flop is that they're inversely proportional.
If you have pot odds to draw on the flop (6.7 to 1 odds), that means you got at least 2 other players in the pot with you. If they both call, then you got about 6:1 or 7:1 odds on the turn to draw for two overcards again, if they both call.
The problem with those odds is that it assumes AK is going to win when it does hit, which is often a bit iffy because your Ace is often counterfeited when the Ace comes down, as it makes someone else's two pair.
While you'd think that you can add some +EV to the equation because a player may drop out on the flop or turn, the con is that it also decreases your pot odds on the draw if a player drops out.
So in reality, you need a draw more like 8:1 or 8.5:1 in order to make your AK worthwhile if people are sticking in, but the more people that stick in, the more likely your AK hand goes down in strength. But if you scare people out, then you must bluff them all out otherwise you're suffering -EV from drawing/betting with the worst of it.
It's a fun hand indeed Smiley The key, is to make your decision based on position and what I coin fractional pot odds, factoring in the +/- EV of bluffing. Early position, big field - forget about it. Early position, heads-up or small field, bet the flop with tight players. Early position, small field of loose player(s), not so hot. Late position, big field, bet-check for optimal math strategy. Last position, small-medium field, bet-bet those tight guys and maybe those loose guys.
BigDil511
Re: Overcards
« Reply #4 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 1:59pm »
I agree with you MJ, my main consideration with this hand is positon, if I am in LP everyone checks to me I'll bet half the pot to try and take it down, although I play pretty much strictly NL, so in a 10 person 1/2 ring game I doubt a $1 bet is gonna scare the drawers out.
ajo
Re: Overcards
« Reply #5 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 8:04am »
drawing for overcards is a double edged sword due to your outs making someone else 2 pair. i try not to draw overcards 90% of the time due to this. the other 10% i usually have some other draw as well, gutshot, backdoor flush, etc.
mervhage
Re: Overcards
« Reply #6 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 8:19am »
Playing AK recently (.5/1), I had the following situation occur. I raised from MP and got one caller from the blinds. Flop came rags and he bet out and I raised him, he flat calls. Turn is another rag and he checks and I check behind him. River is an ace, he check/calls (he had a smaller pair, so raising the flop got me the free card I needed to win. If I don't improve I can check behind him, since it's unlikely some1 folding a pair at this level, no matter the board.
ajo
Re: Overcards
« Reply #7 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 12:28pm »
on Apr 28th, 2005, 8:19am, mervhage wrote:
Playing AK recently (.5/1), I had the following situation occur. I raised from MP and got one caller from the blinds. Flop came rags and he bet out and I raised him, he flat calls. Turn is another rag and he checks and I check behind him. River is an ace, he check/calls (he had a smaller pair, so raising the flop got me the free card I needed to win. If I don't improve I can check behind him, since it's unlikely some1 folding a pair at this level, no matter the board.
that is a pretty typical play at any level. sometimes i like to put a bet in on the turn to apply more pressure even with AK high and check on the river if i dont improve. to many times you will check the turn and have the SB/BB bet out anything b/c you show weakness. at least with a bet on the turn i give them another chance to fold.
rustbrad
Re: Overcards
« Reply #8 on: Apr 30th, 2005, 1:53am »
Rolph Slotboom made a great point in an article about AK in early position and that in limit hold'em it may be correct not to raise pre-flop.
I'm not going to rehash the article, but it had many valid points. Sometimes, just to change it up (or if I am running bad) I just call with it in early postion. If an ace flops, you are likely up against an inferior kicker (and no one can put you on AK!).
Position is a huge factor in judging how you play this hand. If someone in position knows that you have AK after a raise, it's a lot easier for them to manipulate the hand when you don't hit. Here is an article from Rolph that I just dug up while looking for another. He pretty much says the same things about the hand that I do, only he may be even more tight than me. Tongue
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazin ... m_id=65538
I'm definetely not saying that you shouldn't raise with AK, but am suggesting that you need to consider WHY you raise with it. Raising with it just because everyone says it's correct is a bad idea. Damnit....I can't find the article on that. Okay.....essentially it says that the raise from up front usually drives out the weaker aces and kings and that you are committing to bluffing at the pot once the flop comes (asuming you don't hit). When the A or K does hit, you are less likely to get paid off since people generally know what you have.
Not raising pre-flop gives your hand deception, makes it easier to get away from (again, early position here) and gives draws less of a pot to draw at, making it more incorrect for them to call.
New angle?
scottie_g.
Re: Overcards
« Reply #9 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 11:19pm »
See Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller for a good explanation on how to play overcards.
Overcards
« on: Apr 27th, 2005, 3:46am »
It seems that every time I get AK or AQ these days, the flop comes all rags - and, to be honest, I never know quite what to do (nearly always, of course, having raised pre-flop).
The new playing guide on this site (excellent, by the way) suggests one should fold to any bet if the flop misses you entirely. So, if the board comes three rags with no obvious straight or flush draws, should one fold AK / AQ? What if there is a potential draw? Should one be more inclined to stay in?
What if it's checked to you (say one to three other players in the pot) - check or bet? Checking is practically an invitation to opponents to bluff or semi-bluff if a highish card doesn't come on the turn. Betting commits you even further to the pot if everyone calls.
I know the answers to these questions always begin 'It depends...', but I'm looking for general thoughts that would be applicable to a typical semi-loose ring game where you may not have a great read on your opponents. I'm also aware of the advice in the Miller/Sklansky low-limit book, but, frankly, I'm not totally bought in to the redeeming power of backdoor flushes and straights (I can never make a flush or straight when I've got a proper draw!), though I see the advantage of having fewer opponents.
Thanks for any observations.
goofyballer
Overcards
« Reply #1 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 4:17am »
I'll check the flop if my AK/AQ doesn't hit a rag board. I'll call a flop bet to see if I improve on the turn, and then fold otherwise, unless I have reason to believe (against tight opponents maybe) that the flop didn't help anyone else either and my AK is the best hand.
Sure, checking screams "my AK missed", but so what? They'd call you down anyway if you bet and you were trying to represent a high pocket pair. When I first got PokerTracker, I noticed that I lost more money with AK than any other hand. I'm not sure if i'm back in the black with it yet but I'm certainly doing much better since I stopped playing it like it was the nuts all the time, even when the flop missed me.
« Last Edit: Apr 27th, 2005, 4:18am by goofyballer »
BigDil511
Re: Overcards
« Reply #2 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 5:15am »
I tend to agree with goofy, I believe way too many people hang onto this hand when it completely misses and its obvious that you are behind in the hand. Although if pot odds are good enough drawing for overcards and/or nut flush or something like that can be ok to check/call in my opinion. Sorry I cant be more helpful but I really believe if you havent hit your hand in any way check/fold is in order.
Just my opinion.
MJ
Re: Overcards
« Reply #3 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 10:14am »
Depends how many people are in the pot after you've raised. If it's small enough you think that some betting on the flop and turn can get'em out, then I say go for it.
In any other situation, I say it's a no-go unless you got pot odds. The problem with AK and pot odds on the flop is that they're inversely proportional.
If you have pot odds to draw on the flop (6.7 to 1 odds), that means you got at least 2 other players in the pot with you. If they both call, then you got about 6:1 or 7:1 odds on the turn to draw for two overcards again, if they both call.
The problem with those odds is that it assumes AK is going to win when it does hit, which is often a bit iffy because your Ace is often counterfeited when the Ace comes down, as it makes someone else's two pair.
While you'd think that you can add some +EV to the equation because a player may drop out on the flop or turn, the con is that it also decreases your pot odds on the draw if a player drops out.
So in reality, you need a draw more like 8:1 or 8.5:1 in order to make your AK worthwhile if people are sticking in, but the more people that stick in, the more likely your AK hand goes down in strength. But if you scare people out, then you must bluff them all out otherwise you're suffering -EV from drawing/betting with the worst of it.
It's a fun hand indeed Smiley The key, is to make your decision based on position and what I coin fractional pot odds, factoring in the +/- EV of bluffing. Early position, big field - forget about it. Early position, heads-up or small field, bet the flop with tight players. Early position, small field of loose player(s), not so hot. Late position, big field, bet-check for optimal math strategy. Last position, small-medium field, bet-bet those tight guys and maybe those loose guys.
BigDil511
Re: Overcards
« Reply #4 on: Apr 27th, 2005, 1:59pm »
I agree with you MJ, my main consideration with this hand is positon, if I am in LP everyone checks to me I'll bet half the pot to try and take it down, although I play pretty much strictly NL, so in a 10 person 1/2 ring game I doubt a $1 bet is gonna scare the drawers out.
ajo
Re: Overcards
« Reply #5 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 8:04am »
drawing for overcards is a double edged sword due to your outs making someone else 2 pair. i try not to draw overcards 90% of the time due to this. the other 10% i usually have some other draw as well, gutshot, backdoor flush, etc.
mervhage
Re: Overcards
« Reply #6 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 8:19am »
Playing AK recently (.5/1), I had the following situation occur. I raised from MP and got one caller from the blinds. Flop came rags and he bet out and I raised him, he flat calls. Turn is another rag and he checks and I check behind him. River is an ace, he check/calls (he had a smaller pair, so raising the flop got me the free card I needed to win. If I don't improve I can check behind him, since it's unlikely some1 folding a pair at this level, no matter the board.
ajo
Re: Overcards
« Reply #7 on: Apr 28th, 2005, 12:28pm »
on Apr 28th, 2005, 8:19am, mervhage wrote:
Playing AK recently (.5/1), I had the following situation occur. I raised from MP and got one caller from the blinds. Flop came rags and he bet out and I raised him, he flat calls. Turn is another rag and he checks and I check behind him. River is an ace, he check/calls (he had a smaller pair, so raising the flop got me the free card I needed to win. If I don't improve I can check behind him, since it's unlikely some1 folding a pair at this level, no matter the board.
that is a pretty typical play at any level. sometimes i like to put a bet in on the turn to apply more pressure even with AK high and check on the river if i dont improve. to many times you will check the turn and have the SB/BB bet out anything b/c you show weakness. at least with a bet on the turn i give them another chance to fold.
rustbrad
Re: Overcards
« Reply #8 on: Apr 30th, 2005, 1:53am »
Rolph Slotboom made a great point in an article about AK in early position and that in limit hold'em it may be correct not to raise pre-flop.
I'm not going to rehash the article, but it had many valid points. Sometimes, just to change it up (or if I am running bad) I just call with it in early postion. If an ace flops, you are likely up against an inferior kicker (and no one can put you on AK!).
Position is a huge factor in judging how you play this hand. If someone in position knows that you have AK after a raise, it's a lot easier for them to manipulate the hand when you don't hit. Here is an article from Rolph that I just dug up while looking for another. He pretty much says the same things about the hand that I do, only he may be even more tight than me. Tongue
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazin ... m_id=65538
I'm definetely not saying that you shouldn't raise with AK, but am suggesting that you need to consider WHY you raise with it. Raising with it just because everyone says it's correct is a bad idea. Damnit....I can't find the article on that. Okay.....essentially it says that the raise from up front usually drives out the weaker aces and kings and that you are committing to bluffing at the pot once the flop comes (asuming you don't hit). When the A or K does hit, you are less likely to get paid off since people generally know what you have.
Not raising pre-flop gives your hand deception, makes it easier to get away from (again, early position here) and gives draws less of a pot to draw at, making it more incorrect for them to call.
New angle?
scottie_g.
Re: Overcards
« Reply #9 on: Jun 7th, 2005, 11:19pm »
See Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller for a good explanation on how to play overcards.
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beezee - Grinder
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