Middle pair

[biggle10]

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with :jc, :ah.
4 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 3 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) :jd, :7h, :qs (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks.

Turn: (3.75 BB) :3d (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.75 BB) :6h (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

[goofyballer]

I might bet the turn, but this isn't a bad line either. I'd guess AK or 99-TT. The downside to this line is that if you're ahead, you miss a bet on the turn (when villain doesn't bet) when you're ahead. The only way you're getting raised if you do bet out the turn is if villain's sandbagging a monster (QQ or JJ); so, I think betting is more like guaranteeing that 1 bet goes in on the turn rather than the possibility of 0 bets if he checks behind (which definitely would indicate you're ahead and should have bet). Maybe I'm not making sense...basically:

If you check and villain bets, then you're calling a bet which he would have called had you bet.
If you check and villain checks, you're ahead and just lost 1BB you could've made.
If you bet and get raised, you can safely fold.

There's a small chance that he would fold to your turn bet, meaning that you might have made more by inducing a bluff, but more often than not I think a typical 2/4 fish is responding to a turn bet here by saying "hey, he's just trying to bluff me because I checked behind the flop! I'm keeping him honest!"

[caffiend]

Grab your flame-proof clothes. Here it comes!

--Flame On--

This is exactly the sort of contentless hand in the middle of nowhere post that helps make 2+2 such a dive. You could have at least hinted at the results by choosing an approriate title such as:

1. Sucking out with trash.
2. Trash beats worse trash.
3. Getting my ass kicked with trash.

This is almost certainly one of the three. Man, I feel like House (cool show by the way), I hate hand histories but since it's here I'll try and be constructive.

--Flame Off--

Now I feel like the Human Torch. Too bad he's a guy, can you imagine if House and the Torch had a kid? That'd be some super hero.

Why are you raising garbage in the middle? I know you're opening the pot and it's marginally acceptable to consider it a long-shot steal attempt, but you can't be called or raised by anything but better hands, unless you're playing 2+2ers.

I think you've almost got to give the cut off either AK, AA-TT before the flop though 99 is a marginal raise. Assuming he has half a brain, which may be half a brain too much credit, I think you cold call a smaller pair and let at least the big blind in since you're playing for the set anyway.

That being said, my mission on the flop would be to find out if he has AK or an overpair. (Or the unlikely AQ, which will also show up there) I'd invest a couple bets there, seeing how much he likes his hand while you still have outs and the betting is cheap.

Er, but you both checked the flop and the 3d appeared with a bet. Now you almost have to raise, even though it's expensive. The trey either gave him half a backdoor flush or he's sandbagging a monster. Though there's an outside chance he's got some goofy open ended straight draw.

This, of course, is why these things are often meaningless. If CO is a complete dolt, there's a wide range of things you could be behind. If it's me in the cutoff, there's no hand I play that way. But lacking any context at all it's impossible to say much that's constructive.

It would be better if you'd posted what you were thinking on critical streets. I don't like open-raising five people with AJo at all. But maybe this was a table full of rocks and you figured to swipe the blinds? Then it's a good idea and the problem is that you got too attached to a hand.

Why didn't you bet the flop? Because you suspected he had an overpair or top pair and were planning to fold if he bet? That's acceptable, but leads us to the turn. Obviously if you're calling you don't think he has a bigger pair anymore, so what else would that bet represent? The backdoor flush, since any straight draw gained from a 3 seems unlikely. So why not bet here?

You don't want to wallow around trying to cut your losses with a marginal hand. Either pop him early and figure out where you're at, or give it up early and get the hell out of dodge. If the question you're asking is if you misplayed this hand I for one think you did, because you failed to do either of those. Either you give him overcards or a smaller pair and go to war, or you give him a monster and grab the first bus to foldsville.

The only exception I'd put there is if the pot was sufficiently big because it got capped on the flop and I was really unsure what he might have then I might pop him early in the hand and call down. But more likely than not I'd just call the raise on the flop and drop it on the turn when I didn't improve.

[goofyballer]

This is exactly the sort of contentless hand in the middle of nowhere post that helps make 2+2 such a dive. You could have at least hinted at the results by choosing an approriate title such as:

1. Sucking out with trash.
2. Trash beats worse trash.
3. Getting my ass kicked with trash.

Knowing Biggle, I think he actually posted this hand to get comments rather than post at the end that he lost to J3 and OMG CAN YOU BELIEVE HE 3-BET ME WITH THAT?? if that's what you were implying. And I'm not sure what type of hands you want to see...while "should I checkraise my flopped quads on the turn or wait until the river?" is a more exciting question, it has significantly less impact on your winrate than "routine" hands like these.

[caffiend]

If I'm implying anything then perhaps I was unclear. Let me say it flat out, AJo that early is complete trash. Unless you've got a legitimate shot at making the rest of the table fold, you ought to be folding it. In a reraised pot with garbage like AJo one of those three things did happen. You beat a better hand with your garbage, you got run over by a premium hand, or you luckily found someone pushing worse garbage than yours.

As to what kind of hands I'd like to see, the honest answer would be none. I know people thrive on these things, but I'm not one of them. I could always read 2+2 to see the same basic hands posted over and over with rote answers behind them, and forums so chock full of beautified replay goodness that you spend all eternity digging for the non-history posts they're hiding.

Now that's not to say some example hands aren't instructive. This one is doubly instructive both as an example of why not to play AJo so early, and because both people in it played goofy as hell post-flop. It's a twofer!

But, to be instructive in the general sense, hand histories need to be placed in context, not just scribbled on the bathroom wall. This is just AJo hangin' out there, with no rhyme or reason. This really ought to have a question with it, such as "How can I play AJo better in general?" or "What did I do wrong on this particular hand?"

In a perfect world I'd seperate the two different kinds of hands, putting specific hands in one forum and general examples in this one, where the number of them isn't overwhelming. So this would be its own specific question someplace else, and the thread here would be examples of the trouble hands in the middle.

[mattaca]

I agree with caffiend's response as to how I would play it. I would come out betting the flop to see where you stand.

If he calls at least you can only put him on a drawing hand or a monster being slowplayed (which you'll find out on the turn).

If he raises, then you have to re-evaluate. Would he make this play with a lower pp? Maybe or else he has an overpair or trips in which case you can let it go.

The one bonus of check calling him down is the information you'll get as in finding out what he three bets pre-flop and how he plays post-flop.

[biggle10]

A few things:
1. I don't like to hint at results as to not skew any discussion that might follow.
2. I agree that this hand isn't content heavy and is a very routine situation. In fact its probably very boring to a winning player. With that being said, I'm not exactly crushing the game and I'm looking for leaks. Leaks don't come in those extraordinary situations that make for interesting hand pots, but in the situations one sees over and over again.
3. I didn't feel like I played this hand well (thus the post) and I do appreciate your time to give advice.

-- While I agree that AJo is a easily dominated hand, its also an above average hand. http://www.pokerroom.com/games/evstats/pairStats.php lists AJo as having a positive EV from 3 off the button (which coincides with what I see in my PT database albeit over a very small sample of 30 hands).

[caffiend]

Odd, I'd put you a seat or two further off the button. But counting was never my strong suit.

The entire concept of dominated hands gets overblown most of the time. This close to the button you aren't too worried about being dominated. If someone has AK, AQ, or JJ+ you'll just have to eat dirt and like it. The problems with it are twofold.

First of all, if you get called or raised you're more than likely behind, either by a little or alot. Being behind a small pair isn't too bad, since you can bail out on the flop and all your outs are clean. The tough part is guessing how far you are behind.

On top of that, AJ is just a hand that doesn't play well in most pots. It never presents a good draw, which is important if you pick up the blinds and a caller or two. It definately doesn't play well in a raised pot, with your kicker suspect. This is also a hand you don't want to turn two pair with, since that often presents someone broadway, or a draw to it.

Adding insult to injury when you do get called by two paints you'll often end up in ugly situations where they turn two pair to your one, or an open ended straight draw to your gutshot.

Raising first in here is a marginal thing. If there's a reasonable chance you can steal the blinds or get heads up with the big blind then go for it. That's either money in the bank, or likely the best hand in good position. On the other hand, if there's a calling station or more in between you and the big blind I'd drop this like a hot potato. You really don't want to routinely raise marginal hands, as that can make a profitable hand unprofitable quickly.

[scottie_g]

Who is this caffiend guy and what does he have jammed up his ass?

I think raising with AJo from that position is not bad. I like it actually. One thing I would recommend is always including some kind of read on the other player if you have one. I think that would help a lot in deciding how to play post-flop.

I would probably have lead out on the flop here. The other guy could have something like AK or any lower PP. Sure, he might have a Queen... bet and find out. I am almost never a fan of just calling down here unless I'm being bet into by a super aggressive player that bluffs a lot.

[biggle10]

Who is this caffiend guy and what does he have jammed up his ass?

I think raising with AJo from that position is not bad. I like it actually. One thing I would recommend is always including some kind of read on the other player if you have one. I think that would help a lot in deciding how to play post-flop.

I would probably have lead out on the flop here. The other guy could have something like AK or any lower PP. Sure, he might have a Queen... bet and find out. I am almost never a fan of just calling down here unless I'm being bet into by a super aggressive player that bluffs a lot.

I was originally thinking about taking a WA/WB line, but when he checked behind on the flop I got confused. I probably should've bet the turn and folded to a raise.

[goofyballer]

I think raising with AJo from that position is not bad. I like it actually.

Ed Miller, also known as God in some parts of the world, recommends raising AJ in MP in both loose and tight games in SSH.

[caffiend]

Ed Miller, also known as God in some parts of the world, recommends raising AJ in MP in both loose and tight games in SSH.

Let's not get too crazy. We're talking about a guy who has one year of small stakes experience and went broke playing online. That's not to say that the book is bad or that he isn't winning alot of live games, just that you should never do something because it has someone else's seal of approval on it.

Preflop there, anything you did would be correct, depending on the table. Anything except blindly following anyone else's advice, mine, yours, or a books.

[goofyballer]

you should never do something because it has someone else's seal of approval on it.

You gave your initial advice ("raising AJo preflop here is a crappy idea") knowing nothing about the context of the hand, yet you're saying that we shouldn't follow Ed Miller's advice ("raising AJo preflop here is a good idea") without taking the context of the hand into account...I don't get it.

[scottie_g]

Ed Miller is God and SSH is the bible.

[caffiend]

You gave your initial advice ("raising AJo preflop here is a crappy idea") knowing nothing about the context of the hand, yet you're saying that we shouldn't follow Ed Miller's advice ("raising AJo preflop here is a good idea") without taking the context of the hand into account...I don't get it.

They aren't mutually exclusive, you shouldn't blindly listen to me or Ed Miller. The only person you should listen to blindly is Mom, because she's always right.

I will once again admit that I misread the converted history the first time, and thought it was further off the button. My bust.

That being said raising AJo here is a crappy idea. With you paying one bet on an expected value of .19 you're really in this for the long haul. Add in the rake, and you're back to marginally profitable, at best. But the reason this is a crappy idea isn't because it's a close descision. It's a crappy idea because there are so many better places to get your money in.
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