Middle pair

[lsutiger]

The only person you should listen to blindly is Mom, because she's always right.

Mama said playing poker is bad! Oh Crap!

[velar]

Sounds like this issue could divide the forum, so I will step in with the right answer.

Disclaimer: I've only played Stars 2/4 to clear the last two bonuses. Total of ~14 hours play time, but with just shy of $400 table profit.

2nd disclaimer: Advice given assumes Villain is an ok player. If he's a total donk, then nobody could ever know how to play this. Trust me, I've seen these guys reraise with QJ or Q7 or worse.

AJo raise from MP: table-dependent, of course. Also depends on Biggle's image. I'm sure he was playing as a rock, so this could be a blind steal on image or a "mixing it up" raise. Either way, I'm fine with it as long as the people acting behind you weren't known maniacs.

Villain 3-bets and Hero calls. Ok...we want to see a flop. Aside from J 3 2 or J J 7, this is as good a flop as you can expect. You hit a piece. I would bet to see if Villain hit or started out with a bigger pair. If he raises, you can safely let it go. If he calls, then maybe a check/call to river is ok unless another scare card hits.

Hero checks. Villain checks. That surprises me. He's either got the aforementioned QJ, or a small pair, or AK. Hero's check should induce a bet by Villain, even if it's a bluff, unless he's got a monster. By monster, I don't include AA or KK, as that is vulnerable to two pair with this flop. Puzzling.

Anyway, another semi-harmless card hits on the turn and Hero still checks. Given the previous round of checking, I definitely bet here. I may be falling into villain's trap, but I have to find out. Same deal - he raises and I check to see if I want to lose $8 to call to the river to potentially win ~$37. Not horrible odds, but any call has to be made under the assumption this guy is more likely bluffing than not.

In summary, it's tough to play mid-pair against unknown players or donkeys. If you want to, at least play it aggressively from the start until Villain gives you a reason to slow down.

Any chance we could at least have hidden results next time? People can formulate a response before seeing it, and then find out how wrong they were after.

[puckhead23]

Ed Miller is God and SSH is the bible.

http://www.meer.net/~enometh/b-b/beavis_c.jpg

[6gunsblazin]

Assuming typical game and opponent:

When CO 3 bets it preflop, I assume you are likely to be looking at a medium to big pair, AK or AQ. It has to be AK exactly or TT or smaller pair for you to be ahead on the flop. Even if CO is as weak as KQ, QJ, you're still beat.

Rainbow flop and he checks it behind you? After 3 bets preflop? That says big hand to me and he doesn't want you to fold. If you 3 bet preflop wouldn't you bet when it was checked to you on the flop no matter what you had? So why doesn't CO?

I say dump it on the turn. You're out of position and you don't know where you are....but you should be pretty sure you are behind.

Enough suspense......what did CO have?

[biggle10]

Not that results matter much, but villain shows QQ. The more I think about it, I think there's very little chance that I'm ahead here. If villain has 99/TT, he's betting the flop trying to get me to fold my J or Q. If villain has AK, he's betting the flop with 2 overs and a gutshot. Check = monster in hindsight.

I still should've bet the turn.

[ajdo]

so you bet on the turn....he has QQ and is more than likely going to smooth call and wait to see if you bet out on the turn.

[6gunsblazin]

I still should've bet the turn.

I wouldn't bet the turn there. I like your original check and call to showdown much better than a bet out on the turn.

Check and call is not a terrible strategy here (out of position and don't really know where you are), I think if you are going to bet to try to find out where you are, a bet out or check raise on the flop is the best place for that. However, once CO checks the (rainbow) flop behind you after 3 bets preflop, that is big information and should be a warning not to bet again at this pot.

This was a very good HH for discussion. I liked the idea of posting the HH and giving everyone a chance to say what they think about it and then posting the result later. That works out nicely. Thanks Biggle.

[mervhage]

I'm not entirely opposed to open raising with AJo in MP when no one else has entered the pot, it depends on the table dynamics and Biggle's image (in case anyone is paying attention).

Is it possible for the villain to reraise with hands <TT? In this case you're missing bets since he'll mostly likely call it down. And in the event of a monster you're saving your ass (mostly what Goofy said in his initial response).

By the way, I think you played it fine, but I'm certainly not a great limit hold 'em player, so take it for what it's worth.

[tightpoker]

Given the 3-bet pre-flop, I figure my opponent is on TT+ or AK/AQ on flop flop if I have no reads. With a read, I increase that range accordingly.

On the flop, I'll actually take that J to a 3-bet in order to figure out where I am. I'll lead out with midpair and if my opponent comes at me from behind, I'm not going to drop the hand there because that's almost like a continuation bet from someone that 3-bet here.

I don't mind your flop check at all, since it would have made perfect since for him to continue behind you here. At this point I would have check-raised to gain the same info as vs the 3-bet by having led the action instead. That said, you only check here in order to check-raise. If your plan was to check-call this situation, that would have been completely wrong. The key with so much pre-flop dancing is to figure out exactly where you are fast, while it's cheap. Finding out on the expensive strees is gonna be a Bad Thing.

On the turn, with a check behind, I would have definitely tossed a bet and then folded to a raise. Only a set is playing this type of hand slow then fast with this kind of development, so I can safely figure I'm far behind if this happens. If I simply get called, then I put my opponent on lower PP or AK.

On the river, if a K or T falls (threat of AK or TT becomes tangible), I may check to be safe, but otherwise probably pop another salvo off for a value bet.

These are merely the opinion of a monkey.

[biggle10]

How does a flop checkraise give me any information? My opponent is going to likely do the same thing with winners and losers. I check. He bets. I raise. If he has monster like QQ or something weaker that I beat like AK or TT he'll just call. I bet the turn. He raises or folds as the case may be. I win 1BB when ahead and lose 2BB when behind.

I agree I want to find out quickly where I'm at, but its much harder OOP.

[caffiend]

Slow playing seems to be the flavor of the month online, so I get very suspicious if someone calls a check-raise then cold calls a bet on the turn. In all honesty if you're up against a complete dope you're just going to eat dirt here some percentage of the time. Basically, two things can happen.

He can give you credit for a decent hand and start raising the flop. AKs is a real and dangerous possibility because it presents you a backdoor flush and straight draw. AA, AKo, KK are all less hazardous, but still potential deal breakers. The thing is that the total amount of outs you may have is reasonably high with just the premium hands. In this case I'm not giving you free or cheap draws no matter what. If you've got a shakey hand now, nothing you can catch up to by the river is good for me.

Of course, he can do what always happens to me, and cold call bets down to the river where he suddenly raises. In this case you can take some consolation from the fact that the majority of the time he's giving you cheap outs to beat him. Really, with second pair you aren't married to this hand anyway, so assuming he calls a bet on the flop I might very well fold when he bets the turn if I haven't caught something to improve.

[velar]

An example of why I agree with MJ and my original post - bet to see where you are at on that flop.

I know it's not the exact same, but here we have a guy limping, then 3-betting, then checks on the flop. I usually take that as strength, but you have to find out. Ignore the fact I would have hit trips (I'd go insane if I didn't forget what I dropped instantly).

***** Hand History for Game 3087402691 *****
1/2 Texas Hold'em Game Table (Limit) - Thu Nov 24 09:40:24 EST 2005
Table Table 65292 (Real Money) -- Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: PENNNATIONAL ( $12.25)
Seat 2: CountCrakula ( $33)
Seat 3: OxbowUnicorn ( $31.25)
Seat 4: petski85 ( $104.75)
Seat 5: squeeler333 ( $44.50)
Seat 6: WetherbyAce ( $54.50)
Seat 7: viperislucky ( $34.75)
Seat 8: Tobbe61 ( $106.97)
Seat 9: germshep ( $6)
Seat 10: Velar ( $117)
OxbowUnicorn posts small blind (0.50)
petski85 posts big blind (1)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Velar [ 5c, 5h ]
squeeler333 folds.
WetherbyAce calls (1)
viperislucky calls (1)
Tobbe61 folds.
germshep folds.
Velar calls (1)
PENNNATIONAL calls (1)
CountCrakula folds.
OxbowUnicorn folds.
petski85 raises (1) to 2
WetherbyAce calls (1)
viperislucky raises (2) to 3
Velar folds.
PENNNATIONAL calls (2)
petski85 raises (2) to 4
WetherbyAce calls (2)
viperislucky calls (1)
PENNNATIONAL calls (1)
** Dealing Flop ** : [ Qd, 5s, 3c ]
petski85 checks.
WetherbyAce checks.
viperislucky checks.
PENNNATIONAL checks.
** Dealing Turn ** : [ Jh ]
petski85 bets (2)
WetherbyAce folds.
viperislucky calls (2)
PENNNATIONAL calls (2)
** Dealing River ** : [ Kc ]
petski85 checks.
viperislucky checks.
PENNNATIONAL bets (2)
petski85 calls (2)
viperislucky calls (2)
** Summary **
Main Pot: $28.50 | Rake: $1
Board: [ Qd 5s 3c Jh Kc ]
PENNNATIONAL balance $4.25, lost $8 [ 8h Th ] [ high card king -- Kc,Qd,Jh,Th,8h ]
CountCrakula balance $33, didn't bet (folded)
OxbowUnicorn balance $30.75, lost $0.50 (folded)
petski85 balance $125.25, bet $8, collected $28.50, net +$20.50 [ Ac Jc ] [ a pair of jacks -- Ac,Kc,Qd,Jc,Jh ]
squeeler333 balance $44.50, didn't bet (folded)
WetherbyAce balance $50.50, lost $4 (folded)
viperislucky balance $26.75, lost $8 [ 6c As ] [ high card ace -- As,Kc,Qd,Jh,6c ]
Tobbe61 balance $106.97, didn't bet (folded)
germshep balance $6, didn't bet (folded)
Velar balance $116, lost $1 (folded)

btw - somebody please send me detailed instructions on using that hand converter. I tried with this one, but couldn't get it to work. Thanks.