Tight Poker

[fifo]

Sorry to whine here, but I am truly at a loss.

Here's how I play: I went with the EV chart given on the tightpoker site and made myself a list that goes like this:

In EP, raise everything down to 0,5EV (AKo), call down to 0,3 (AQs)
In MP, reraise those >1EV (AA, KK, QQ), raise everything down to 0,4 (AJs), call to 0,2 (KTs).
In LP, reraise until AKs, raise all EP's and call all MP plus everything down to 0,15EV (the lowest is about A8s)

That is a modestly more strict version of what is recommended at the TP-intro an just about what is given in Sklansky's Texas Hold'em BooK (roughly: in EP, raise Group I, call Group II/III; in MP, raise I/II, call III/IV; LP: reraise I/II, raise I/II/III, call up to IV and a few others).

Strategy: Well, I'm just a blody beginnner there. I do know a few ideas, such as limiting the field with premium pairs, or trying to buy cards cheaply with flush draws etc. But the many finer points (naturally still) escape me.
And, after an initial session (and after going over this), I _am_ relatively disciplined with folding on the flop if the cards don't suit me. Naturally, I always win if I become reckless every now and then...

Pot odds/outs etc: Well, I'm _slowly_ getting a hold on that. I guess I know when it is ok to check/call for another card if I hope to make a flush/straight. And, frankly, with all the betting going on in a .02/.04cent limited game, you virtually _always_ get the odds to call. But I do keep on practicing figuring those out with some kind of exactitude.

So, I guess, from a rough and ready point of view, I should be more or less ok, no?

But here's the problem:

Because of my (hopefully) tight approach, I play about 1/12 of all possible hands (about 150 hands, I play about 25 of them). Of those, there are about half XXs, the rest either pair or XXo. Therefore, I very, very rarely even have the _chance_ of getting a flush. Similar with straights: 14 of the 25-or-so hands I play, would make a straigh at least remotely likely.
Since a flush/straight is quite rare, because of my style of play, there are entire sessions where I don't get a single one. But I guess that's just what I should expect.
Everyone else around me is literally playing everything in every possible fashion. Calling AA all the way to the river, reraising 65o preflop - simply everything.
And that's what makes things difficult. The whole concept of preflop raising AA for example is based on narrowing down the field as to make flushes/straights/trips of deuces and stuff like that less likely. But this simply doesn't work!! Literally NOONE feels impressed by me PFR even though they _know_ I have a high pair/AKs or similar.
They know, because I _always_ do it and I _always_ hit the wall with it. I would think I _do_ play premium pairs right, and I would probably play a very standart hand against most of you with AKs because most here would fold to a PFR of mine, and I could expect those that don't fold to have something of at least a remote value. The dilemma here is, that there seems to be no way out of it: Even if I consciously assume them to have every kind of trash against my pocket AA, there's nothing I can do. I raise to make every additional card expensive for them, and they happily pay. I raise again, they pay again and because of their fancy 89o cards, they usually have call all their way to the river to hit their straight. But then it's already too late. Then the pot is already gigantic.
So, the one part of the dilemma is: I can raise all I want, and realize that they hit dirt on the river, when they start betting back and I usually feel that it doesn't really matter to call for those 4c on a $1 pot. And I usually loose to the straight or flush I expect them to have hit on the river.
The other part of the dilemma would be to either fold at the slightest chance of a straight/flush/trips (but that would be virtually always), or keeping the pot cheap. But then they get their cards even cheaper. And I guess a tight-aggressive style is more in need of the few big bangs than a super super loose style, right? So it wouldn't hurt them, just me.

Is there _anything_ I can do? (I mean, besides repeating the mantra, that, if they simply play at random, it becomes a game of probalities and if I hold out long enough (i.e. play about 30k hands at this level), I will have won 5 big pots with AA more than I lost with those cards...)

[fifo]

hmm,

it _is_ interesting to look at your own words after you've cooled off. I looked at all my wins/losses of the last two days.

I seem to be way too aggressive on the river:

Here are todays stats (brackets = net win):
won:
K5o .40 (.24) BB
T9o .15 (.07)
69o .17 (.06) BB
A9 .23 (.13)
K3o .1 (.04) BB
AJo .45 (.31)
AQo .45 (.23)

net = 1,29

lost: (brackets = w/out any action on the river -> only checking/calling)
AKo -.24 (-.2)
JJ -.2 (-.16)
AQo -.38 (-.26/.22)
J5o -.16 BB
88 -.18 (-.14)
QJ -.04 SB
AK -.24 (-.16)
AQ -.14
net loss: -1,74 (without river: -1,26)
So, would I just have cooled down on the river, I'd have broken even! That's still not great, but probably what I'm aiming at at the moment.

Just to exemplify:

GAME #434598055: 2c / 4c Limit (ok) - 2006-09-20 07:44:30
Table Turnberry

Seat 1: maxmaxmtp ($1.9 in chips)
Seat 4: redrose2169 ($1 in chips)
Seat 5: pretreltigha ($5.07 in chips)
Seat 6: taff1973 ($1.72 in chips)
Seat 7: zwaankey ($0.47 in chips)
Seat 8: Blinker1 ($1.7 in chips)
Seat 9: leadinlive ($0.95 in chips)

zwaankey: SB $0.01
Blinker1: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [HA SK]
leadinlive: Fold
maxmaxmtp: Call $0.02
redrose2169: Fold
pretreltigha: Raise $0.04
taff1973: Raise $0.06
zwaankey: Fold
Blinker1: Raise $0.06
maxmaxmtp: Call $0.06
pretreltigha: Call $0.04
taff1973: Call $0.02
*** FLOP *** [CJ C5 D10]
Blinker1: Bet $0.02
maxmaxmtp: Raise $0.04
pretreltigha: Call $0.04
taff1973: Call $0.04
Blinker1: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [CJ C5 D10 C9]
Blinker1: Check
maxmaxmtp: Bet $0.04
pretreltigha: Raise $0.08
taff1973: Call $0.08
Blinker1: Call $0.08
maxmaxmtp: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [CJ C5 D10 C9 C2]
Blinker1: Check
maxmaxmtp: Check
pretreltigha: Bet $0.04
taff1973: Raise $0.08
Blinker1: Fold
maxmaxmtp: Fold
pretreltigha: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pretreltigha: shows (mucked) [HA SK] (None)
taff1973: shows [C6 H6] (Flush)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.97 Rake $0
taff1973: wins $0.97

... thinking about it, I probably should have folded that right after the flop. (didn't I say something about being disciplined at folding if the flop doesn't match?? )

[shun]

I like your method of categorizing hands, although it's pretty tight compared to the starting hand pre-flop selection most books reference. Tight is right though, as long as you're avoiding stuff like JTo in early position and 74s in late position you're in good shape. Certainly, for a new player it's much better to play tight and work on your post-flop game as a tight player rather than trying to play after the flop with top pair weak kicker as a loose player.

In regards to pre-flop play, one of my favorite articles is "Hold'em Preflop Strategy According to Abdul" by Abdul Jalib. There may be some complicated strategy but if you're looking for a good pre-flop strategy the chart there is fairly simple to print out and use in front of you while playing. Also print out the rules for completeing the SB and defending your BB, those are excellent albeit maybe a bit too loose for a beginner. If you haven't read a specific book pre-flop strategy, that is a good article to start with.

My suggestion, if you haven't already is to read a beginner book on Limit Hold'em, my personal suggestion would be to read Winning Low Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones and then when you feel ready for some more advanced strategy read Small Stakes Hold'em by Ed Miller et al. WLLH will get you to play tight and make sure you are playing the good hands post-flop and not get stuck calling to the river with a bad kicker. SSHE will help once you get to that point where you want to get more aggressive in loose games to help you squeeze out every bit of value you can out of your hands. I feel that the books go hand in hand in building a library of poker knowledge that will get you to become a good player.

In considering strategy that will help you right now, your approach sounds sound and you should be winning if you're playing tight enough but maybe you're just getting unlucky in your first sessions. Pot odds are vitally important in limit hold'em, if you haven't read some of the guides here at Tight Poker I'd do that, maybe try printing out an odds sheet to keep in front of you. But basically, you either want to be playing top pair/good kicker or better (two pair, trips/set), or you want to be on a good draw (straight draw/flush draw). Bottom or second pair on the flop is rarely ever good, you should only call with these hands if you're getting good enough pot odds to hit two pair/trips (which you will be frequently in loose games). If you don't hit, you need to fold if your pot odds aren't good or are too close to call. One thing I'd suggest is that when you're doing pot odds, and say you know you're 8:1 on the next card to hit your 5 outs, and you're almost getting 8:1 but it's only about 6 or 7:1, fold instead. Occasionally you'll be beat and it'll save you from situations when you hit your hand and have the worst hand. What you want to do is make sure you're playing in those situations where you're 12:1 with a flush draw or a straight draw. The bigger the pot odds the more you will profit when you hit.

And on losing in the micro-limit games to crap hands, it happens. Enjoy it while it lasts, because as you move up in limits from 1/2 and maybe sometime to 5/10, you'd give an arm and a leg to sit in a game where people call with 80% of their hands pre-flop or raise with 64o. One thing to keep in mind is that you're really raising pre-flop for value as well as limiting the field. Yes, you will win more often the less people you see the flop against, but even if you see the flop against 9 other players, 1) you probably have the best hand pot equity wise pre-flop, 2) you will lose more often but win more the times you do win. Occasionally, AA is good unimproved in a big pot. And the times you do hit an Ace on the flop, you will get paid off very well when 9 other players see the flop. Don't worry, the good beats will come your way eventually.

[shun]

Seat 1: maxmaxmtp ($1.9 in chips)
Seat 4: redrose2169 ($1 in chips)
Seat 5: pretreltigha ($5.07 in chips)
Seat 6: taff1973 ($1.72 in chips)
Seat 7: zwaankey ($0.47 in chips)
Seat 8: Blinker1 ($1.7 in chips)
Seat 9: leadinlive ($0.95 in chips)

zwaankey: SB $0.01
Blinker1: BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to pretreltigha [HA SK]
leadinlive: Fold
maxmaxmtp: Call $0.02
redrose2169: Fold
pretreltigha: Raise $0.04

<< You definitely would like to raise here.

taff1973: Raise $0.06
zwaankey: Fold
Blinker1: Raise $0.06

<< The fact that someone 3-bet and capped behind you would be bad if this were a normal game, but assuming these guys are donkey idiots they could have a large variety of hands that you have beat. If it just came back to you 3-bet, you'd actually want to cap it in this situation.

maxmaxmtp: Call $0.06
pretreltigha: Call $0.04
taff1973: Call $0.02
*** FLOP *** [CJ C5 D10]
Blinker1: Bet $0.02
maxmaxmtp: Raise $0.04

<< Calling the first bet is mandatory, but this decision is close. The first bet you'd bet getting 18:1. Your gutshot that isn't a club to make the nuts is 3 outs and that's about 15:1. Right there this is enough to call one bet, but not a second bet.

Now, you do have overcards, but if assume someone has a flush draw, your the Ace of clubs and King of clubs are no good. And even so, top pair might not even be good here, as someone could hold JT. If we assume they wuld be good though, that's 4 more outs on top of your 3 to the nuts to make 7, which is about 6:1 to hit on the next card, therefore your pot odds must be at least 6:1 to make a call correct. You're getting 19:2 or 9.5:1, which is good enough to call, in my opinion. However, it's a close decision, and if you were playing against good players where a hand like AA/KK or even the other AK is likely from Blinker1 or taff1973, you might want to just fold it.

pretreltigha: Call $0.04
taff1973: Call $0.04
Blinker1: Call $0.02
*** TURN *** [CJ C5 D10 C9]
Blinker1: Check
maxmaxmtp: Bet $0.04
pretreltigha: Raise $0.08

<< Sorry, you're on your own now. A bluff like this will rarely ever work in limit hold'em. Even against good players, they will call on the turn with a flush draw and hope to hit, and when the pot is like 20:1 to call on the river you will get looked up all the time when they have any pair. And sometimes someone will have hit their flush on the turn and you will be getting 3-bet and having to fold. Clearly you should have folded right here.

taff1973: Call $0.08
Blinker1: Call $0.08
maxmaxmtp: Call $0.04
*** RIVER *** [CJ C5 D10 C9 C2]
Blinker1: Check
maxmaxmtp: Check
pretreltigha: Bet $0.04
taff1973: Raise $0.08
Blinker1: Fold
maxmaxmtp: Fold
pretreltigha: Call $0.04
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pretreltigha: shows (mucked) [HA SK] (None)
taff1973: shows [C6 H6] (Flush)
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $0.97 Rake $0
taff1973: wins $0.97