Tight Poker

[terminal]

I am currently playing a HORSE MTT and this hand comes up. I appreciated the chips, I wonder if he thought my straight beat his 3 of a kind.

PokerStars Game #9896945493: Tournament #49447902, $10+$1 HORSE (Razz Limit) - Level III (60/120) - 2007/05/13 - 19:11:31 (ET)
Table '49447902 5' 8-max
Seat 1: Terminalnet (2324 in chips)
Seat 2: Fun92118 (1214 in chips)
Seat 3: LBCpoker (2117 in chips)
Seat 4: Giacomo28 (2439 in chips)
Seat 5: Trachycarpus (2534 in chips)
Seat 6: cujohouse (1154 in chips)
Seat 7: D Khanback (2390 in chips)
Seat 8: apexofpoker (1828 in chips)
Fun92118: posts the ante 12
LBCpoker: posts the ante 12
Giacomo28: posts the ante 12
Trachycarpus: posts the ante 12
cujohouse: posts the ante 12
D Khanback: posts the ante 12
apexofpoker: posts the ante 12
Terminalnet: posts the ante 12
*** 3rd STREET ***
Dealt to Terminalnet [3d 4s 2s]
Dealt to Fun92118 [Qd]
Dealt to LBCpoker [8c]
Dealt to Giacomo28 [Jc]
Dealt to Trachycarpus [8s]
Dealt to cujohouse [9s]
Dealt to D Khanback [Ah]
Dealt to apexofpoker [5h]
Fun92118: brings in for 18
LBCpoker: folds
Giacomo28: folds
Giacomo28 is sitting out
Trachycarpus: folds
cujohouse: raises 42 to 60
D Khanback: folds
apexofpoker: calls 60
Terminalnet: raises 60 to 120
Fun92118: folds
cujohouse: calls 60
apexofpoker: calls 60
*** 4th STREET ***
Dealt to Terminalnet [3d 4s 2s] [3h]
Dealt to cujohouse [9s] [Kh]
Dealt to apexofpoker [5h] [Jh]
Terminalnet: bets 60
cujohouse: raises 60 to 120
apexofpoker: folds
Terminalnet: raises 60 to 180
cujohouse: raises 60 to 240
Betting is capped
Terminalnet: calls 60
*** 5th STREET ***
Dealt to Terminalnet [3d 4s 2s 3h] [6c]
Dealt to cujohouse [9s Kh] [2h]
Terminalnet: bets 120
cujohouse: raises 120 to 240
Terminalnet: raises 120 to 360
cujohouse: raises 120 to 480
Betting is capped
Terminalnet: calls 120
*** 6th STREET ***
Dealt to Terminalnet [3d 4s 2s 3h 6c] [7d]
Dealt to cujohouse [9s Kh 2h] [Ks]
Terminalnet: bets 120
cujohouse: raises 120 to 240
Terminalnet: raises 120 to 360
cujohouse: calls 62 and is all-in
*** RIVER ***
Dealt to Terminalnet [3d 4s 2s 3h 6c 7d] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cujohouse: shows [Ad Kd 9s Kh 2h Ks Th] (Lo: K,T,9,2,A)
Terminalnet: shows [3d 4s 2s 3h 6c 7d 5d] (Lo: 6,5,4,3,2)
Terminalnet collected 2518 from pot
Terminalnet said, "lol"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2518 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Terminalnet showed [3d 4s 2s 3h 6c 7d 5d] and won (2518) with Lo: 6,5,4,3,2
Seat 2: Fun92118 folded on the 3rd Street
Seat 3: LBCpoker folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Giacomo28 folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Trachycarpus folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 6: cujohouse showed [Ad Kd 9s Kh 2h Ks Th] and lost with Lo: K,T,9,2,A
Seat 7: D Khanback folded on the 3rd Street (didn't bet)
Seat 8: apexofpoker folded on the 4th Street

[terminal]

Well I have made it to 2nd break. I am 10th in chips. There are 51 left and 32 get paid so I should make the money. I ended up splitting three ways last night in a $5 + .5 Limit Draw MTT. We each got about $140 but not bad for 3 hours of my time. Hopefully I can make it till the final table on this one. I still get bored playing these MTTs, although HORSE is not so bad because you change games. but I guess I am going to have to start playing them more.

[tdostie@nc]

I'm watching. Currently 8th in chips

[terminal]

Third break and I am chip leader, 12 left.

[edit]Correct that I am 2nd, someone passed me on the last hand before break on other table while I was typing that.[/edit]

[terminal]

Went out in 4th. This hand killed me, I should have folded pre-flop after Bugsy's re-raise. I don't know what I was thinking. It left me extremely short stacked. So went all in on my first O8 hand. At least this hand moved me up two places in money.

PokerStars Game #9900025600: Tournament #49447902, $10+$1 HORSE (Hold'em Limit) - Level XXI (8000/16000) - 2007/05/13 - 22:31:41 (ET)
Table '49447902 22' 8-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: Terminalnet (38236 in chips)
Seat 2: livinroll (32052 in chips)
Seat 3: holdemhater5 (12984 in chips)
Seat 5: callmeirish (107299 in chips)
Seat 6: Fireymama (86848 in chips)
Seat 8: BugsyS (186581 in chips)
Terminalnet: posts small blind 4000
livinroll: posts big blind 8000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Terminalnet [6s 6d]
holdemhater5: raises 4984 to 12984 and is all-in
callmeirish: folds
Fireymama: calls 12984
BugsyS: raises 3016 to 16000
Terminalnet: calls 12000
livinroll: raises 8000 to 24000
Fireymama: calls 11016
BugsyS: calls 8000
Terminalnet: calls 8000
With that money in the pot a set would make a killing, little did I know I had no chance at a set. I was probably drawing dead, because I bet Bugsy had a bigger pair.
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4s 9d]
Terminalnet: checks
livinroll: bets 8000
Fireymama: raises 8000 to 16000
BugsyS: folds
Terminalnet: folds
livinroll: calls 52 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Ah 4s 9d] [3d]
*** RIVER *** [Ah 4s 9d 3d] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
livinroll: shows [Kd As] (a pair of Aces)
Fireymama: shows [Ac 4c] (two pair, Aces and Fours)
Fireymama collected 60168 from side pot
holdemhater5: shows [6c 6h] (a pair of Sixes)
Fireymama collected 64920 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 125088 Main pot 64920. Side pot 60168. | Rake 0
Board [Ah 4s 9d 3d Th]
Seat 1: Terminalnet (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 2: livinroll (big blind) showed [Kd As] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 3: holdemhater5 showed [6c 6h] and lost with a pair of Sixes
Seat 5: callmeirish folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Fireymama showed [Ac 4c] and won (125088) with two pair, Aces and Fours
Seat 8: BugsyS (button) folded on the Flop

[LadyWrestler]

4th! GG, sir!

[sfustsh]

Question on the first hand: is raising on 4th street standard? It seems better (to me) to not reopen the betting.

I am not a razz player, just asking.

[caffiend]

Question on the first hand: is raising on 4th street standard? It seems better (to me) to not reopen the betting.

I am not a razz player, just asking.

Yes and no. In a "normal" game you're going to be low and first to act on the following street. There's a certain amount of logic to calling then, because it lets you make a big bet into a smaller pot.

On the other hand, you're going to win 60% of the time against anything he could be holding. He looks to be making a move here (and it's terrible too) so your fold equity is a bit reduced. That takes away a lot of value from a call. If he's going to play again no matter what falls controlling the size of the pot's a waste.

The main reason to call would be to protect yourself from the soul searing bad beats that razz hands out. Obviously making two pair or trips is a disaster for you, but a lot of stupid shit can happen on the last two streets if you both catch good. I think you're best calling if it's a small ante and raising if it's a high ante.

Personally, it'd come down to game tempo for me. I'd be wondering if I needed to make a stand here and how likely cujo is to go berserk. If he's going to spew when he makes that nine then I might call and hope for an explosion on the big streets. Then I can get away cheap if the odds turn or stack him if they don't. If he's folding if he catches bad then I'm raising and hoping he does.

If people are playing freeroll style, and every hand's capped on third then I'm probably dumping as many chips as I can into a heads up pot where I'm favored. I'd be going out on a limb, but I'd really need the extra chips to stay alive. I'd be less likey to gamble it up if the game was sort of quiet. Against super tighties you can steal a lot, and against loose and passive people you can sweep up some big pots.

[terminal]

Question on the first hand: is raising on 4th street standard? It seems better (to me) to not reopen the betting.

I am not a razz player, just asking.

Well I figure with 2 3 showing I am basically hoping both of these guys just give it up right now, apex knew he should. A guy with 9 K showing is going to re-raise me? This guy had already shown in previous hands that he did not understand razz, so I was going with my gut feeling that he was an idiot.

[caffiend]

Well I figure with 2 3 showing I am basically hoping both of these guys just give it up right now, apex knew he should. A guy with 9 K showing is going to re-raise me? This guy had already shown in previous hands that he did not understand razz, so I was going with my gut feeling that he was an idiot.

He is an idiot, but in this case he's somewhat correct. His mistake is playing K9xx at all. The rest of it makes sense. He must raise your initial bet to get Apex out. Having done that capping the betting makes some sense. He doesn't really know yet if your raise represents a real hand or just a strong front.

The real problem with this line of thought is it doesn't make much real world sense. If the antes are large enough to justify continuing with K9 which is clearly the worst hand out there, then the pot's quite possibly large enough to keep J5 in there. So rather than cutting off people, he's putting himself in the middle, which is the worst thing he can do. If the antes are small and J5 is going to give up, then he's putting in multiple bets in a small pot with absolute garbage.

The only way this makes sense is if apex is tight enough to fold and cujo expects to recoup the extra small bets based soley on his position. In this one oddball situation then the K benefits him because he stands to be last to act throughout. But not a nine. K5 or better, maybe.

[sfustsh]

Question on the first hand: is raising on 4th street standard? It seems better (to me) to not reopen the betting.

I am not a razz player, just asking.

Well I figure with 2 3 showing I am basically hoping both of these guys just give it up right now, apex knew he should. A guy with 9 K showing is going to re-raise me? This guy had already shown in previous hands that he did not understand razz, so I was going with my gut feeling that he was an idiot.

I did not realize that this was the same villain. I can see a raise now. However, isn't the point about squeezing apex irrelevant, since he's already folded when cujohouse raises?

[sfustsh]

Well I figure with 2 3 showing I am basically hoping both of these guys just give it up right now, apex knew he should. A guy with 9 K showing is going to re-raise me? This guy had already shown in previous hands that he did not understand razz, so I was going with my gut feeling that he was an idiot.

He is an idiot, but in this case he's somewhat correct. His mistake is playing K9xx at all. The rest of it makes sense. He must raise your initial bet to get Apex out. Having done that capping the betting makes some sense. He doesn't really know yet if your raise represents a real hand or just a strong front.

The real problem with this line of thought is it doesn't make much real world sense. If the antes are large enough to justify continuing with K9 which is clearly the worst hand out there, then the pot's quite possibly large enough to keep J5 in there. So rather than cutting off people, he's putting himself in the middle, which is the worst thing he can do. If the antes are small and J5 is going to give up, then he's putting in multiple bets in a small pot with absolute garbage.

The only way this makes sense is if apex is tight enough to fold and cujo expects to recoup the extra small bets based soley on his position. In this one oddball situation then the K benefits him because he stands to be last to act throughout. But not a nine. K5 or better, maybe.

Isn't 23xx a huge (read: huge for razz) favorite over K9xx regardless of the hole? I don't think you're representing anything. You are objectively strong, right?

[terminal]

Isn't 23xx a huge (read: huge for razz) favorite over K9xx regardless of the hole? I don't think you're representing anything. You are objectively strong, right?

I am an expert at Razz by no means. I play it only in the context of these horse SNGs and MTTs. IMO yes I have a huge lead over K9 I could not believe he was re-raising me. Technically at that point he could have been ahead of me since I had paired my 3s, but as it turns out he had a pair as well. He has A9KK and he re-raises, he was basically giving me his chips. Even if he has A2 in the hole I am willing to cap and I am liking my chances.

[caffiend]

Technically at that point he could have been ahead of me since I had paired my 3s, but as it turns out he had a pair as well.

That's trivial, because he can't be the favorite. You're winning 60% of the time against K92A and more than 75% of the time if he's got a larger pair. That being said, many people fail to appreciate how dangerous razz is. I think this typically applies to Hold'em players, who are used to getting most of their hand early.

If fifth street comes up and you catch bad while he catches good you're suddenly a huge dog to a perfect king. For example if you catch a queen and he catches a six. K962A is a large favorite over 33Q42. You were 60% to win on 4th, and now you're 30% to win on fifth. Even worse, the bets are twice as large now.

Anyway, I wouldn't get too attached to a "huge lead" on fourth. As I said, this is a dangerous hand for you because you'll be out of position. There are also quite a few scenarios that will make you a big dog on the next card. (See above)