HU interesting hand.

[poormanbilly]

Playing against a maniac. I should have pushed the flop even with 0 FE. I thought he might have had a bigger flush draw. Could I have any more outs vs his holdings?

Converted by PokerGeek
Full Tilt NL Hold'em Ring - 0.10/0.25 Blinds (2 handed)

Starting Stacks
Seat 1: Button (Hero) ($28.15)
Seat 5: Big blind ($47)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
Hero raises ($0.75), Big blind calls ($0.50)

Flop: ($1.6) , , 2 players)
Big blind checks, Hero bets ($1.50), Big blind raises ($6), Hero calls ($4.50)

Turn: ($13.6) (3 players)
Big blind bets ($13.50), Hero raises ($21.40), Big blind calls ($7.90)

River: ($56.4) (0 players)

Final Pot: $55.8 ($0.50 rake)

Outcome: Big blind shows wins $55.80

[sfustsh]

I don't put any stake in his check raise on the flop. You should have figured for 17 outs by the turn (9 hearts, 3 sixes that aren't hearts, 3 eights and 2 tens). Still, you push all in with these hands because the FE makes up for the odds. Since you have none, your implied odds are essentially your stack on the turn, which is about 22 dollars. You have to call (or shove, since it's this maniac, they are equivilent) off 22 bucks to win 46. Regardless of if my math is spot on, it seems clear that you don't have enough money to double up with to make this is a good investment since you hit only a third of the time on the river.

This is of course if you figure to be behind, there's a good chance he's beat too. I probably make the same play, but shove the flop, where there's still a little FE and make sure he gets the wrong odds to draw.

In retrospect, you have no FE because he will never lay down aces.

[poormanbilly]

I don't put any stake in his check raise on the flop. You should have figured for 17 outs by the turn (9 hearts, 3 sixes that aren't hearts, 3 eights and 2 tens). Still, you push all in with these hands because the FE makes up for the odds. Since you have none, your implied odds are essentially your stack on the turn, which is about 22 dollars. You have to call (or shove, since it's this maniac, they are equivilent) off 22 bucks to win 46. Regardless of if my math is spot on, it seems clear that you don't have enough money to double up with to make this is a good investment since you hit only a third of the time on the river.

This is of course if you figure to be behind, there's a good chance he's beat too. I probably make the same play, but shove the flop, where there's still a little FE and make sure he gets the wrong odds to draw.

In retrospect, you have no FE because he will never lay down aces.

I have no idea what you just said, yo.

[bigdil511]

I don't put any stake in his check raise on the flop. You should have figured for 17 outs by the turn (9 hearts, 3 sixes that aren't hearts, 3 eights and 2 tens). Still, you push all in with these hands because the FE makes up for the odds. Since you have none, your implied odds are essentially your stack on the turn, which is about 22 dollars. You have to call (or shove, since it's this maniac, they are equivilent) off 22 bucks to win 46. Regardless of if my math is spot on, it seems clear that you don't have enough money to double up with to make this is a good investment since you hit only a third of the time on the river.

This is of course if you figure to be behind, there's a good chance he's beat too. I probably make the same play, but shove the flop, where there's still a little FE and make sure he gets the wrong odds to draw.

In retrospect, you have no FE because he will never lay down aces.

I have no idea what you just said, yo.

I don't know what the fuck you just said little kid, but you special, you reached out and touched a brotha's heart. Give me the map Scott. GIMME THE MAP SCOTT!!!

[neverthink]

I don't know how either of you managed to inflate this pot so much without getting it all in on the flop. The board is fuckin awful on the turn for any one pair hand, even AA, as your line looks a lot like a straight/flush draw that got there.

Shove flop, this is exactly the situation you're looking for, an opportunity to break a big pair and look loose and insane when it's profitable for you. As for your outs, at least 9 for the flush draw, your kicker gives you another 3, and a ten might be clean for 2 more if he slowplayed a big hand preflop, so that's14 and enough for me to put him in on the flop. It's far better that he holds AA or KK than JT here as that reduces your outs, but I like a push all the same as you may have him outkicked already and he sounds like he'll call with worse.

As played from calling the flop, I fold turn, even against a maniac unless I have a read that I'm almost certain he is semi bluffing. If you do raise, just shove it all in and hope you trapped him or you suckout.

Really though, click your shove button.

[easy_as_pie]

why didnt you push the flop?

[biggle10]

why didnt you push the flop?

Yeah. What he said.

[sfustsh]

Wtf was my post really that hard to understand?

[poormanbilly]

why didnt you push the flop?

Yeah. What he said.

Eh... I just didn't. I don't consider that a big mistake here as you're coin flipping a lot when you get called.

[easy_as_pie]

but i think that thats the best way to get it in here

you have at least some FE. on the turn you have none.

others might stack off on the turn with A10/K10 and fold the flop if you shove.

[nlman]

Ya, may as well push it if you know you are going all the way. Maniacs fold too sometimes, ya know

[poormanbilly]

but i think that thats the best way to get it in here

you have at least some FE. on the turn you have none.

I 1/2 agree with you. The mistake, in my mind, was pushing the turn. At the very least, I could have saved a few bets by just calling. I know everyone will freak out and say that's not being "aggressive", but I don't think you should be looking for FE on every flop push. There aren't a whole lot of cards that would be scary on the turn, so calling and seeing what happens is viable here. Either way, it's not a huge mistake with so many likely outs. I just thought it was interesting.

[neverthink]

why didnt you push the flop?

Yeah. What he said.

Eh... I just didn't. I don't consider that a big mistake here as you're coin flipping a lot when you get called.

You are more often than not a slight favourite over big hands he will not fold. Add that to the dead and I far from mind about being called. Why is everybody so concerned about fold equity? I'd push hoping he'd call me with AA. If he folds it simply reduces variance, as well as profit in many circumstances. If he calls, you can start playing sets the same way and now you're just gonna destroy him when he holds an overpair, as he'll never fold.

The thing I find odd about your line Bill is raising the turn (all in effectively) when you could now be a fairly big dog, whilst on the flop you were likely a favourite. Right move a street too late. Too fancy.

[biggle10]

Actually, I just ran the numbers. If Villain has AA with an heart, the AA is the slight favorite. If villain has AA without a heart, then hero is favorite.

[sfustsh]

Actually, I just ran the numbers. If Villain has AA with an heart, the AA is the slight favorite. If villain has AA without a heart, then hero is favorite.

Seems about right, to clarify my first post, this is pretty much what I was trying to get at. Since your opponent is a maniac and can be expected to call almost all of the time when you shove you have to make sure you are winning around half the time to make it profitable.

You should shove because, as was mentioned above, even maniacs fold sometimes. In this particular hand though, I can't really ever think of a time your opponent would fold when he holds 2 aces.