How to play KQ, KJ, and QJ in microlimits?

[jacedk]

Having recently returned to the 0.25/0.50 limit game on Interpoker, I am raking in the dough against the massive display of fish and calling stations. This is also a good chance to look closer at my starting hand selection and pre-flop strategy.

Looking over my PT stats for 1.200 hands played (Small sample, I know.) I have noticed that especially KQ KJ and QJ appear to be loosing hands.

Stats:
KQo: 16 hands, 12.5 win %, -0.55 BB/hand, 75% VP$IP, 37.5% PFR, 7.14% WTSD

KJo: 12 hands, 0 win %, -1.21 BB/hand, 50% VP$IP, 8.33% PFR, 42.86 % WTSD

QJo: 10 hands, 0 win %, -1.20 BB/hand, 60% VP$IP, 20 % PFR, 66% WTSD

Any suggestion on how to play these hands in a full, loose-passive ring game?

[caffiend]

Throw them in the muck right off the bat.

They're all garbage, though KQ is a bit better than the other two. They don't have enough of an edge to overcome the rake in community pots. In a passive game you'll only be played back at by two pair, and almost never by a better kicker so you're often betting while behind with them. Also, with the amount of idiots that are playing them you'll be splitting pots more than you would in a more aggressive game.

Mike Caro has suggested that KJo is slightly profitable in community pots. Other people have suggested that you raise hands like this first in in the back. I suggest you ignore both pieces of advice. Don't bother open raising from the middle or trying to buy the button with them. You already know why, you aren't eliminating people either way.

My own personal rules for the unsuited broadways is that they're all "fishing hands" in Caffiend Speak. I'll only play fishing hands in the cutoff, button, and blinds. In the cutoff and button the play of them is straightforward. Either there are three or more limpers in the pot and I limp behind them, or the pot is unopened and I try and steal the blinds. If there's one or two limpers I just quietly muck it preflop. The end result is that you're either playing in position in a big, unraised pot or raising preflop with the best hand. What you aren't doing is playing a light hand in a small pot.

In the blinds I'll be a bit looser with them because of the price. I'll almost always complete the small blind and decide where to go when the flop hits. You can play a small pot here because it's next to free to get in. In the big blind I'll obviously play for free, but I'll also play for a single raise in a community pot. I'll be very careful of bigger hands there however.

[jacedk]

Thanks Caf,

I was pretty much seeing the writing on the wall with these stats, but I wanted to get a second opinion before ditching these hands altogether.

What's your take on these hands when they are suited, and on AQ and AJ suited and unsuited?

[caffiend]

Suited I'll limp from anywhere with them, you'll notice the odds of you making a flush are somewhat close to the rake which added to the very slight edge they have over the garbage people routinely play makes them more profitable. It's also very rare to be raised multiple times in a passive game. If someone bumps it up behind you you'll be getting even better odds on the second call then your original limp, and you can safely play these in a raised pot. If you get a flop that can crack a premium hand you stay, if not you just drop it.

I don't like AJ of any ilk, but I play it the same way as QJ. I'll limp the suited one and see how things shake out or I'll fish with the offsuit one. AQ you can more or less play as if it's AK because so many idiots play AJ and AT like they're AK. The only exception is I'll dump AQ to a preflop raise if I've got nothing in the pot where I'd probably bump it up with AK.

You need to keep in mind that in passive games I'm always looking to play big pots, rather than fight over small ones. The reason I want to get at least three other people in there is that's when flush and straight draws are profitable on their own. I'll try and get to the flop cheap so I get the maximum multiplication of my chips when I do hit the flop, and I'll cut bait at the first sign of rough seas. If I limp QJs and it gets raised a couple times behind me I'll likely give up then and there. That's the same reason I'll normally play the offsuit ones only in the back. If I've got AJo and do hit an Ace I not only want to see the action on the flop before I act, I want the chance to raise not just for the free card later, but to get through the hand on the cheap.

[caffiend]

Well, if we're going to whip 'em out and measure my winrate is11.71 BB/100 and I fold them routinely. [Insert stock sample size discussion here] In reality I suspect the truth is someplace in the middle. You're probably leaking fractional bets both here and on the "everything else" front, and I probably have a slightly inflated winrate due to game conditions. I would've expected you to be more in the 5-7 BB/100 though.

Maybe I should be useful and contribute some strategy articles targeting that sort of game. I've been pondering the idea of some in depth stuff to go along with the bonus guide but haven't started on it. It seemed sort of a moot point since there's apparantly exactly two people playing any of the Caffiend U games, and that's just for shits and giggles.

I'll admit I'm also somewhat wary of the reception it would get, since I tend to differ from the more popular books on the subject. I don't exactly relish a chorus of, "You are such a n00b. 2+2 books kick ass!"

[jacedk]

Actually, I take the games in Caffiend Uni very seriously. Two of my poker goals for 2006 is to become a breakeven limit ring game player and to learn a new variant of poker besides hold'em. Caf U is a great way to do this. I plan to hit up Paradise for some 7-card stud as soon as MJ's new bonus code works.

I'd love to see Caf U expand with strategy advice and more.

Here are my stats on Inter microlimit at the moment, by the way

[caffiend]

Those look similar to mine, I think:

[caffiend]

I plan to hit up Paradise for some 7-card stud as soon as MJ's new bonus code works.

Be careful there. The fact that there's no antes seeding the pot means there's nothing to fight over, so the game can be very tight. It's not uncommon to be heads up on fourth street just running out your overpair against a smaller pair. (Which isn't bad, you'll win 2 out of 3 or so) Unless, of course, you get a couple of live ones on the weekend or peak hours, then it can morph into a super loose river fest with multiple people peeling all seven cards. As far as I know, there is no happy medium.

[jacedk]

Key concepts to pick up are drawing hands in community pots, including when to raise draws, and the play of premium hands.

Caf, could you please elaborate a bit on this? Obviously, playing good drawing hands from late position with many limpers is desireable, but when is the the best place to raise up a drawing hand?

In my experience, I usually do it when there has already been a bet and one or more calls on the flop, and I have a nut flush draw or OESD. If I understand correctly, the key is that a raise in this place will increase the pot odds and rarely drive people out. Thus, the small investment of a small bet on the flop will be paid of in plenty if I hit my draw on the turn, and might even give me the odds to continue to the river if I miss.

[caffiend]

Caf, could you please elaborate a bit on this? Obviously, playing good drawing hands from late position with many limpers is desireable, but when is the the best place to raise up a drawing hand?

The best place is in the back with many limpers, followed by in the front with many limpers, and never in the middle. Let's say you've got the open straight draw, which is about the weakest draw you want to play in hold'em. That gives you 8 outs, so the odds against you making the hand are 2.2:1 with two cards to come, 4.7:1 with one card left.

Suppose you're on the button behind two limpers and the big blind. The big blind bets and both limpers call. It would be almost criminal here for you to call too. You're getting 3:1 just on this round of betting. Nobody can fold if you raise, because they're getting even better odds on the second call. You can cap this to the cows come home.

Or, suppose you're in the big blind in a passive game and there are three limpers behind you. Again, you should bet, because they're all going to donkey call along behind you giving you 3:1 without the pot.

What you shouldn't do is bet or raise it in the middle, where you may cut people off. If a couple people pass, just check behind them and call if someone in the back bets (asusming the pot's big enough) If you're last to act and it's checked around, peel the free card off. After all, it isn't hurting you any if a free one comes.

Of course, you won't always have a bad draw. Since most of your draws will be off of suited connectors and broadways you'll almost always have some combination of backdoor flushes, straights, and overcards to loosen your odds up a bit. If you've bumped up a straight draw on the flop and a four flush comes out on the turn you're really driving the bus.

The great thing is almost non of this can backfire in a passive game. If you raise the flop in the back and everyone checks when you miss on the turn you get a free river and save a bet. If you bet a draw into three limpers in front on the flop and miss the turn you can just bet again on the brick. I mean, you only need to have 1.7 big bets in the pot if they'll all call you, since that's 3:1 and you're a 4.7:1 dog. The blinds plus the flop action more than cover that.

Generally when you do hit you'll ambush someone who doesn't think you have a draw and when you miss you'll just fold quietly on the river. But that's the worst outcome. If you lose people along the way you're hardly crying in your beer over your increased chances to win the pot. And even if the blind three bets you when you've raised on the button you can call and get heads up with him because the pot is huge enough to play profitably and he can't drive you out the way he can in a no-limit game.

[jacedk]

Pretty good information, and easy to understand concepts. Only thing I would like clarified is this bit:

Or, suppose you're in the big blind in a passive game and there are three limpers behind you. Again, you should bet, because they're all going to donkey call along behind you giving you 3:1 without the pot.

I assume you are talking flop play here.

So you get your draw, and check to keep people in, someone after you bets, several people call, and you effectivly check-raise? Or is your point that you might as well bet out right away, because noone will fold anyway?

[barrin6]

So to sum it all up.
Fold KJo in early position and only limp in when in CO Button with many limpers in front?

[caffiend]

So you get your draw, and check to keep people in, someone after you bets, several people call, and you effectivly check-raise? Or is your point that you might as well bet out right away, because noone will fold anyway?

The point is that if you're first to act (it needn't be in the blind) with three or more people acting after you you may as well just bet your draw. In a passive game everyone will call along with you the majority of the time anyway. Against slighty less brain damaged opponents you'll disguise your hand or drive people out, and neither of those is a bad outcome either. In fact, the only "bad" think that can happen is you get raised. But even that narrows the field if it's close to your bet, or juices the pot if it's from the back.

Unlike no-limit, raises aren't crippling because they're fixed in size. You can always check and call down the turn.

[caffiend]

So to sum it all up.
Fold KJo in early position and only limp in when in CO Button with many limpers in front?

And the blinds, of course. In general that's more correct the worse your opponents play. At higher limits there are more places you can play hands like that.

It's also only correct when nine or ten people have been dealt cards. You can play it a majority of the time in any position in a five or six handed deal.

[alanpsych]

I haven't played at this limit, but I'm assuming that the play here is no fold 'em style, with 7-8 limpers pre-flop being typical, and with raising and even re-raising having no effect on the size of the field. This is how $.5/1 Party was about a year ago.

If that assumption is correct, then little, unsuited broadway hands like you describe are going to be marginally profitable, at best, and can probably be dumped unless it's a smaller field, or you're getting great odds in the blinds. In L-P games like this, these hands drop the most in value, while longshot but nut-capable hands such as suited connectors, suited Ax and Kx, and small-medium pairs, increase in value, even though you usually end up mucking them on the flop. Problem is that, with such big fields, top pair, mediocre kicker just isn't good enough to take many pots. Your sample size is extremely small, and will be distorted by your involvement in big pots, win or lose.

P.S. this is one reason I moved to 6 max, where these hands and others are profitable and fun to play. It beats folding, folding, folding, limping with Axs, folding on the flop, folding, folding, etc.