Tight Poker

[pd]

I have still only played a few thousand hands of internet poker so I do not have a perspective on what to expect. You folks with hundreds of thousands of hands will have a good idea of how long streaks can last.

I have been playing .25/.5 at Pacific Poker. I have just gone 55 hands without winning a pot and have won just 2 pots in the last 102 hands. In this time my VPIP is about 28%. At this level of play you can often get bad beats but it isn't really that which has caused me problems - I simply haven't been getting a decent hand when I do have something I can see the flop with. This is certainly the longest run I have had like this.

So....my question is.....Is this the type of run I should expect or is this unusual ? How long can a " not making a hand " run go for ?


Now some separate questions ......In this period I have got deep into the hand a few times. Here are three hands which cost me a substantial number of BBs. I would be very interested in blunt critiscm of how I played them. Pacific do not provide downloadable hand histories so I shall have to describe the hands.

I should also comment that I did not really have a read on my opponents because the table turns over very quickly. However, play is generally loose with people seeing the flop if they have two suited cards, any ace, and sometimes any K,Q, or J.

1. I'm in Mid position, dealt AdJs. All folded to me. I raised and three called behind me.

Flop is 7c8s9h. I checked, 2 other checks and a bet which all called.

Turn is 3s. Everyone checked.

River is Jh. A bet ahead of me which I raised. ( Of course I recognized the risk of a straight but I put him on a Jack with a smaller kicker than me. ) 2 folds. Bettor called. He had As 10h and won with the straight.

The only thing I can think I might have done differently is just flat call on the river.

2. I'm in Big Blind and dealt Ks8s. 2 limpers, SB completes. I check.

Flop is 4s10sJc. SB checks, I bet, 2 callers, SB folds.

Turn is Qd. ( Now I have an open ended straight and flush draws. ) I bet, one call, one raise. I reraise and it ends up being capped.

River is 6c so I have missed everything and fold when there is a bet ahead of me. At showdown a pair of 4s loses to Kc9h.

Was I foolishly aggressive here ?

3. I'm in mid position, dealt AdKs. There are three limpers. I raise. 3 calls, a reraise and then 4 calls.

Flop is Qs9dAc. 2 bets ahead of me, I raise, one call, a reraise which is called by all.

Turn is 3d. One bet ahead of me I call, one raiser which is called by all.

River is 5c. One bet, a fold, and I call. I am beaten by AhQc.

Play is very loose at this level but should I have been scared off by the reraise after the flop ?

This is a great forum. Thanks for the education !

PD.

[biggle10]

1. Overcall the river.

2. Don't cap streets when you're behind.

3. Top pair with 8 players in the pot is shaky. I think your best hope is flat call flop and pop a safe turn folding to a 3 bet.

[goofyballer]

Those hands are fine. Downswings can last thousands of hands...keep posting hands you have questions about, but in limit poker you kinda just have to play well and hope for the best.

EDIT: I defer to Biggle wrt specific advice, I just didn't notice glaring errors. With about 33% equity on the turn in hand 2, you're basically getting even money by getting raises in. As it happened though, your equity was a bit less because someone else had a king as well.

[bigdil511]

I havn't played much limit in the past but recently I have been playing .05/.10 at PS. Like you say the play is terrible here as well but through 1,000 hands my VPIP is 23% (28% is a bit loose) but I have not gone more than 50 hands without winning a pot, but it the grand scheme of things this isn't a very long run. How often do you fold on the river? turn? flop? This is important because you might be holding onto a few too many hands for too long costing you some bets. With OESD and flush draw I cap the flop. From the turn your about 33% to hit one of your hands, I might bet and call a re-raise but I probably wouldn't cap. From the flop you are 54% to win with 15 outs, I cap the shit outta that any day of the week. I fold hand 1 on the flop to a raise because even if you hit your jack (which you did) the board becomes way too coordinated for me to feel comfortable winning with jacks, which leaves you at best with 3 outs if you aren't beaten yet, or it doesn't complete 2 pair for someone else. As you played it I call the river not re-raise.

[alanpsych]

Hand 1: It depends on whether you're in early or late middle position. AJo is at the very bottom of the range for a loose full table game. It doesn't play well multiway, but they're 2 big enough cards that you'll make a small profit on the hand if you play it well. If you're 5th to play or later, then a raise is good.

The flop is horrible for you, with straights and straight draws, as well as various 2 pair combos possible. With AJo, what I'm thinking is "I need to pair up and hope I don't get outdrawn." Honestly, I'm starting to psychologically distance myself from the hand already. I gave it a shot. I fold the flop, in spite of what look like tantalizing odds. You're playing against players who just aren't going to let you win without a showdown.

Hand 2: You don't need to cap here with your draw, as others have said. Even though your straight draw looks like 6 extra outs (plus the 9 flush outs), it's a one-card straight, meaning that you'd only split with another hand that also has a K, and there could be a made straight already, so you have to discount your straight outs. Your re-raise also risks losing the 3rd player, which would hurt your pot odds. You only re-raise if you think you can take it down right now. Based on the stakes, and the fact that one opponent already raised you, there's almost no chance of that. Just call the turn and fold vs. 2 opponents on the river.

Hand 3: Calling down is fine as you did.

As far as losing streaks go, there is no real answer. The cards don't remember if you've been getting dealt good or bad hands, so you'll just get what you get. Once in a while, some people will post graphs (e.g. Goofyballer) that show the ups and downs numerically. I've had 500-1000 hands stretches where I just couldn't get anything going--tons of garbage + big hands getting beat-- and some longer stretches where the bad sessions just outnumbered the good ones. The worst I remember was 2 consecutive days playing $1/2 6 max and losing $300 (150 BB's), which was 1/3 of my bankroll.

[pd]

Thanks for the responses. Lots of food for thought here. And it is interesting that there were different thoughts on some of the hands, especially whether to raise and reraise the flush and straight draw hand. I think now that I lean towards the " don't cap when you are behind" side.

I had imagined that a tough run of 100 hands was not unusual. Now, from your comments, I know it is not. Happily, the run is over. I played for just over an hour last night at .5/1 on Partypoker and it seemed like I hit everything ! Got dealt good hands and had flops to go with them. I won 25 BBs in that time.

One other comment which resonated was goofyballer's " ...in limit poker you just have to play well and hope for the best". Does limit poker become a little mechanical and boring once you understand it well and are fully competent ?

Thanks again,
PD.

[bigdil511]

Thanks for the responses. Lots of food for thought here. And it is interesting that there were different thoughts on some of the hands, especially whether to raise and reraise the flush and straight draw hand. I think now that I lean towards the " don't cap when you are behind" side.

I had imagined that a tough run of 100 hands was not unusual. Now, from your comments, I know it is not. Happily, the run is over. I played for just over an hour last night at .5/1 on Partypoker and it seemed like I hit everything ! Got dealt good hands and had flops to go with them. I won 25 BBs in that time.

One other comment which resonated was goofyballer's " ...in limit poker you just have to play well and hope for the best". Does limit poker become a little mechanical and boring once you understand it well and are fully competent ?

Thanks again,
PD.

I have found limit poker to be a good change of pace, but it is a pretty "ABC" type of poker until you get into higher levels of competition. So I can definately say it can grow a bit boring, although Biggle has played it for years (he also plays Omaha, Stud, and Draw I believe to mix it up).

[puckhead23]

I have just gone 55 hands without winning a pot and have won just 2 pots in the last 102 hands.

I just went through a session where I didn't win a single hand in 100. A couple suckouts and cold cards can make that very possible. So then I fired up a stud table and lost 20 consecutive hands and decided that this is not my night and shut the computer off. I have been on a losing streak the last 1000-1200 hands. It happens. Stay patient and play within your bankroll. Review your HHs and post them if you need any help.

[ugignadl]

I have just gone 55 hands without winning a pot and have won just 2 pots in the last 102 hands.

I just went through a session where I didn't win a single hand in 100. A couple suckouts and cold cards can make that very possible. So then I fired up a stud table and lost 20 consecutive hands and decided that this is not my night and shut the computer off. I have been on a losing streak the last 1000-1200 hands. It happens. Stay patient and play within your bankroll. Review your HHs and post them if you need any help.

OMG is there some kind of crazy connection here or what. Today I lost a stack in NL, so decided to play Omaha, lost in that and felt like a donk (which I am at Omaha) and then decided to play stud, where I was a fish, and called it quits. All up played 372 hands (go PT) winning only 12 of them.