Tight Poker

[snickers99]

As Mike Sexton would say, the only way I could have won the pot was to bet at it. Good or bad? (Note...only the tenth hand vs villain...my thoughts in bold...all comments welcomed.)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) TightPoker converter

MP2 ($10.75)
CO ($9.35)
Hero ($10.40)
SB ($1.75)
BB ($8.90)
UTG ($11.15)
UTG+1 ($4.20)
MP1 ($5.30)

Preflop: Hero is Button with , .
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, MP2 calls $0.10, CO calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, {One gapped suited connector on the button...cool}
1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($0.65) , , (6 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.4, {Checked to me...I'll bet my OESD and would be happy to take it here.}
BB calls $0.40, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds.

Turn: ($1.45) (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks. {I'm confused as to what villian would call with...I'll take my free card and hope to hit.}

River: ($1.45) (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, {Not the best card in the world for me...especially if he had overs. But if the J helped him, I think he would have bet since I checked the turn.}
BB takes a long time as Snickers chants 'fold' over and over again, then he folds.

Final Pot: $2.45

Hero has 8s 6s (high card, jack).
Outcome: Hero wins $2.45.

I like how I played it because I felt he might have had a pair on the flop and he let it go. I don't like how I played this hand because at this level, most people will call you down on a board like that with any piece.

[labatsman]

Bet a continuation bet on the turn and you probably would have taken it there. Remember a free card for you is a free card for villain.

Nicely done.

[sfustsh]

If villain was more sophisticated you'd really have to credit him with a big hand (TPTK or two pair at least) by his out of position call.

Having said that, villain likely isn't that sophisticated so odds are he has one pair with a weak kicker. Therefore you really ought to follow up on the turn and again on the river if need be.

Your hand is actually much stronger than it seems. You may only have an OESD, but any overcard will hugely improve your position, as it makes it more and more difficult for villain to call with just one pair.

With all that said, you might want to just check the flop here. In a large pot the chances of being checkraised are pretty high, especially if the BB flopped two pair or UTG has an overpair. You don't want to call a checkraise, since it likely means calling a bet on the turn, one that might not give you the right odds. On the other hand, your bet is 'strong' with such a large pot, so your opponents' raises are even stronger. Therefore you are more or less guaranteed to get paid off if you hit. In the heat of battle, I make the same bet I reckon.

For me, this would be an insta-raise preflop with the button and a great SC type hand. But raising isn't necessary, and calling is absolutely fine.

[labatsman]

sfustsh Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 5:44 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Therefore you really ought to follow up on the turn and again on the river if need be.

Your hand is actually much stronger than it seems. You may only have an OESD, but any overcard will hugely improve your position, as it makes it more and more difficult for villain to call with just one pair.

With all that said, you might want to just check the flop here. In a large pot the chances of being checkraised are pretty high, especially if the BB flopped two pair or UTG has an overpair. You don't want to call a checkraise, since it likely means calling a bet on the turn, one that might not give you the right odds. On the other hand, your bet is 'strong' with such a large pot, so your opponents' raises are even stronger. Therefore you are more or less guaranteed to get paid off if you hit. In the heat of battle, I make the same bet I reckon.

For me, this would be an insta-raise preflop with the button and a great SC type hand. But raising isn't necessary, and calling is absolutely fine.

Not sure what your trying to say here

[sfustsh]

Which part?

I mean to say that there are lots of good cards for you that don't necessarily complete your straight. Any overcard is good for you because it will be harder for villain to call your bluff on later streets.

[mewsiclovr]

Yeah with that harmless card I think I'd continue to rep at least top pair here and bet again because it can't have helped him. If an overcard came, I'd be more likely to check.

However, as played, well done. Villain checked all three streets, even after you checked behind on the turn, so I'm autobetting. The problem is villains often have TP or second pair but with a weak kicker and are scared to bet, so they default call down just to "keep you honest". That's why I often don't like bluffing on the river. However, it is a powerful tool when used against the right opponent.

[snickers99]

Bet a continuation bet on the turn and you probably would have taken it there. Remember a free card for you is a free card for villain.

I thought about that. I don't like to give out free cards, but if I missed on the river and he bet, I would have let the hand go. I was also thinking that if I checked the turn and did hit my hand, it would be well hidden. And a check by me on the turn might make villain bet into my made hand.

[ugignadl]

I'll keep it short, just for you Snicks . Raise preflop, good bet on the flop, bet the turn and then the river. I think villain had a 3 here.

[neverthink]

I don't know about raising SCs preflop in a FR game with that many limpers ahead, not terrible though. Post flop I bet the flop and the turn and then think about betting the river, usually just give it up though if he's called 2 streets unless you can put him on a missed draw you can bluff out.

Playing it your way after checking the turn is when I usually forget about bluffing the river as people usually think it's a bluff and call me with any pair, which is why I do it with top pair and such and double barrel the draws. You used positional advantage, and bluffed him when he was weak, river is marginal but good for your image if called anyway so it's fine.

[mervhage]

It looks fine, but I'd bet a little more on the river.

If you don't bet, you split the pot with the villain who probably has 68 too.

[caffiend]

I don't know about raising SCs preflop in a FR game with that many limpers ahead, not terrible though.

I'm somewhat inclined to agree based on the stakes and the structure online. At these stakes I'd suspect your opponents don't respect position enough for you to win based on that alone. If you have to make the hand to get there, connectors are much less attractive.

Online games also seem to feature a bunch of short stacks. Even the max buy-in is short. Even worse, at the shortest stakes so many people overbet that the stacks are short compared to the pot. All of that combines to mean raising often gets people pot committed rather than just juicing it.

If you're going to raise them, I really think you need to be playing against people who exercise some restraint. You also need to be willing to rebuy fairly often when it doesn't work out.

[sfustsh]

FWIW, I would never make a raise designed to win the pot outright here. I would make a small pot building raise (2.5x to 3x the blind).

Besides, why would I want to force out weak opponents who don't respect position with a hand like this one?

And, uh, hello? Everyone already in the hand has 50 BB at least. I don't see any short stacks?

The other argument I hear people make is that "your raise is transparent, everyone knows what you have". Totally wrong. All you know is that I don't have jacks or better. I might have AK for all you know, or a middle pair, juicing for my set. The point is: No, you really don't have any idea what I'm holding, and you are blinded by your own arrogance to think you do.

Besides, raising to a small amount let's me control the betting on the flop. If it checks around to me, I am in no way obligated to make a continuation bet. Why would I? I've invested 3 BB in the hand and if I have no interest in it, I'll just check behind. I can make moves when I want, because I have no obligations to bet and I have the button.

Everything about this hand points to advantage: me. I have absolute control over where I stand in the hand. I'll know second pair is never good, I'll have the ability to grant myself a free card, to c-bet or not to c-bet, to raise or fold whenever I want.

Making a big preflop raise designed to thin the field is frankly retarded. It doesn't accomplish any of my goals. I want to build a pot with a big pot hand. I want to keep as many players in to maximize my implied odds. It lets my opponents get out of the hand with hands I want them to call with (AJ, maybe. Imagine an A86 board. So many possibilities).

So, in the end, I think making a large raise is a bigger blunder than folding, but not making a small raise, is a bigger blunder than calling. In my head:

Small raise > Calling >>> Folding >> Big raise.

[caffiend]

You're a funny guy. Five people ahead of you are going to check around in a $2.50 pot.

That nobody's short stacked thing is classic too, 50 BB! You want to build a 25 BB pot before the flop. Then, after any subsequent action swells it to equal or larger than the stacks involved with you you'll use your position and mad skillz to knock it down.

[sfustsh]

You know what caffiend?

You can play this pot however the hell you want, but I see an opportunity to raise a good hand on the button with substantial implied odds, so I'm going to take it.

If you're not abusing the button you're missing a critical part of deep stacked hold em.

[mirage]

Juicing the pot aside, I don't like to risk re-opening the betting if I can see the flop cheap there. You never know when someone is slow-playing a big pair and praying someone raises, happens all the time at this level.