Tight Poker

[easy_as_pie]

This is a pretty important topic and I wanted to talk to you guys about it. Over the past couple of months I think that the MTT world has changed a lot and a new "gambling" style has emerged. Now you don't see people playing tight early on as much as you used to and there are a lot more LAGs now both in cash games and in tournaments. This could be because it is more fun to play a LAG style. It could also be because there are a lot of new "young blood" poker players that burst out onto the MTT scene this year and are straight up destroying everything left and right on all sites. Players like ActionJeff, Below, isuck, Ari, gb's and others are FTing major tournies on a daily basis. The old school pros are definetly taking a beating. What separates the new breed of players is that they resent the traditional tag tricky style and player much more agressive. They take every single +EV opportunity that they see. That could be the case because this new breed of player plays A LOT more tournaments then your average pro, playing evey single big buy-in MTT on every site and they can afford to take these coinflips and slightly +EV situations because at the end of the day they will ultimatly FT or take one of these tournies down.
What does everybody think of this? Did you guys notice this trend? Do you think that there are a lot of dumb LAGs that try to immitate the success of top online pro's? I mean now you see stuff like defending the blinds with Q8 vs a st8forward tag and then c/r AI on KQx flop for all their chips all the time, no?
If we take things in perspective and assume that we play a smart LAG style taking slight +EV edges now to accumulate chips, is that a good idea? Is risking your whole stake early on as a 4% favoruite worth it because the value of the big stack in hero's hands increases by a lot more and warrants that risk?
Let me know what you think. I want to leave you guys with this HH which kinda goes along what I was saying. I knew that he has AK here 99% of the time. Even typed it in the chat box.

Seat 1: bowarrior ($1,320 in chips)
Seat 2: escarr ($2,440 in chips)
Seat 3: Skeletor Lee ($1,570 in chips)
Seat 4: WLHart09 ($1,380 in chips)
Seat 5: ketchup4444 [9H,9S] ($1,450 in chips)
Seat 6: mrbrain ($730 in chips)
Seat 7: Therkil ($1,470 in chips)
Seat 8: ardoise ($1,230 in chips)
Seat 9: KC xx ($1,310 in chips)
Seat 10: davideze78 ($2,100 in chips)



ANTES/BLINDS
escarr posts blind ($10), Skeletor Lee posts blind ($20).

PRE-FLOP
WLHart09 folds, ketchup4444 bets $75, mrbrain calls $75, Therkil folds, ardoise folds, KC xx folds, davideze78 calls $75, bowarrior folds, escarr folds, Skeletor Lee bets $700, ketchup4444 bets $1,375 and is all-in, mrbrain folds, davideze78 folds, Skeletor Lee calls $730.

FLOP [board cards AC,QC,KS ]


TURN [board cards AC,QC,KS,6H ]


RIVER [board cards AC,QC,KS,6H,9D ]


SHOWDOWN
ketchup4444 shows [ 9H,9S ]
Skeletor Lee shows [ KC,AS ]
ketchup4444 wins $3,060.

[alanpsych]

I think I've mentioned this once a while back. When I first joined this site a couple of years ago, playing TAG in tourny's was the gospel. At that time, you could virtually fold your way into the money because of all the insane all-ins from hand 1, so the thinking was why risk getting eliminated early on when getting into the money is as simple as playing JJ+ and AK.

To get an idea of how bad play was back then, just look at the MTT replay from Jason Strasser (Strassa2) under "Premier Replays." Every time he gets AA, he ends up getting all in with Ax or smaller pocket pairs.

Even though the play continues to be pretty bad, you see much less all in mania. When you raise with your AA, there is a very real chance that you'll just win the blinds.

Although I don't like the idea of going all in with 99 (I doubt you can really know you're up against AK with any certainty), I do like the idea of seeing a lot of flops with smaller pairs and suited connectors hoping for big flops that will allow you to stack a fish who can't fold his TP.

[easy_as_pie]

Alan, there might be less all in mania but there is definetly much more loose plays, much more semi-bluffing and re-stealing going on then before.

I was pretty sure that the majority, if not everybody, will think that I am a crazy for making the play with 99 and it's fine.This is why i posted this to see what you guys think.

The textbook says that its not a good move. The textbook says to wait for better spots if you are a better player, to avoid coinflips early on because hero's edge is much greater then the edge gained from the flip, right?
I think that textbook play doesn't win tournaments that often because if everybody is playing ABC poker you need to adjust accordingly.

I could say with a lot of certainty that he had AK, Alan, because that is probably the only hand that makes that kind of raise in that particular spot. 99 is a favourite against AK. Its a 52/48 favourite I think. With the dead money in the pot I had some odds in my favor to make it an even better move.
The major reason why I think its a good play, for me at least, is because the value of a big stack in my hands, relative to the rest of the field, warrants this kind of move. In general, I try to have a very big stack during the early but mostly during the middle stages. If i bust i bust, there is always another, but if I win i think my chances to FT increase dramatically.
This is the kinda "gambling" that I was talking about in the first post and wanted to see what everybody thinks and if other people do this.

[bigdil511]

I will do this too, but it depends on the player, and its usually calling a decent raise with something like 78s. I am not pushing AI with 99 here, that slight edge you have with 99 vs AK the 52 times you double up and win the pot do not equal enough FT's IMO to make this worth it, you will have to win every single coinflip in this type of situation to make it worth a push. Say next hand after you double up with 99, you have TT and get all in PF with someone who has you covered, and you lose to AQ now you are out and the first minor EV push you had just simply wasn't worth it. I would rather play 78s to a flop and hope to flop TP and a draw of some kind and I will no doubt be AI after that. I think pushing 99 is just too much a risk, I understand what you are saying, and I don't think you are crazy, just not how I would play it.

[miamipuck]

The problem with everyone playing LAG style and going monkey shit in the beginning of a tourny is 99.9% of the players have no fucking clue what they are doing.

Playing loose in the beginning is not pushing mid pairs and suited connectors because you think your opponent has AK, thus you are a slight favorite or slight underdog but willing to risk your chips to double.

The proper style to mix up early includes many things which are of utmost importance. Willy nilly allins just to get a little +EV for EV sake is taking the idea way too far. Thus you get 1000 jackasses desperate to double on the first level of a large MTT. They push and or reraise with dick hands etc,. etc.

I love those people. Sure I get some bad beats it is poker afterall. However, I have been winning a lot of money in MTT's taking advantage of the LAG stroke victims.

The proper ways to play lag IMHO include :

1.) Pot control- If you are going to play a much wider range of hands, control the pot. Do not call or reraise some jackball that raised half their stack holding small pairs or suited connectors/2 gappers etc. There is no fold equity so any post flop skill is lost. Play smaller pots. Raise 2.5 BB. Thin the field in POSITION! Stay out of Raise and Reraise wars. Keep the pots small and win the majority of them. Then when you get a monster playing so many small pots you can possibly get some action. Keep the pots you play small till you hit!

2.) Post Flop play is essential- You are going to be making lots of stabs, reraises, c-bets etc. So again pot control comes into play. Raise/bet 30-50% of pot. Unless you have monster all you need is the other player to fold 30- 38% of time for this technique to be profitable. I kill players with this technique, especially on the bubble. If reraised simply fold. If called and you are bluffing shut down, unless a scare card comes. Semi bluff is essentially the same.

3.) Get beyond playing your two cards- To apply this technique you have to think at another level. You have to think what your opponent is holding, you also have to think what he thinks you are holding. Reads and playing your opponent really come into play. If you just see your two cards please play Tag or you will be chopped to pieces. This is because you are going to be c-betting and reraising with air often. If you have a bad or no read on your opponents your chips are going bye-bye. This takes practice, I think this is the most important part of playing Lag in the early/mid and late stages of an MTT.


I am tired I will post more later. In summation playing a looser style to obtain chips is a good style. However most players go monkey shit with no idea how to play loose and aggressive. They think it is all in city. If you play that style early think about this, pushing only needs to be wrong once for you to be eliminated. However if you are cognizant of pot control, your opponents and display good post oak play. So what if you lose a pot, you will have a much smaller percentage of your chips in the middle when and if you lose. Then and only then are you on your way to be a profitable monkey shit lag!

Sorry for the vague post but it is late and I am tired.

[miamipuck]

Just simply amazing there are no responses!

[bigdil511]

Just simply amazing there are no responses!

I simply see no way to make up a logical argument against what you said. My silence basically means I agree with your assesment, and have had similar conclusions about early level play. Also seeing as you are the more experienced MTT between us, I bow before you and get on my knees and am ready to please O great master . Anyway I think your post is really well thought out. Just curious what is the % you see the flop during MTT's? I am usually around 15%-25%.

[flash]

I'll echo BigDs post, that was a great post Miami.

But throw in a question: I try very hard to avoid coinflip situations early in MTTs, but I have recently read several articles promoting the idea that it is better to risk busting out half the time than to limp along with an average or sub-average stack.

The argument being that a good player with a big stack will a) have a very good chance of getting deep into the tournament & b) have more fun doing so

When I hear the term 'gambling early', this is what comes to mind. The play usually involves going all-in PF against a big stack who you put on two overs knowing you are going to be called.

So at what point (if ever) do you make this move?

[fractal]

I'll echo BigDs post, that was a great post Miami.

But throw in a question: I try very hard to avoid coinflip situations early in MTTs, but I have recently read several articles promoting the idea that it is better to risk busting out half the time than to limp along with an average or sub-average stack.

The play usually involves going all-in PF against a big stack who you put on two overs knowing you are going to be called.

So at what point (if ever) do you make this move?

I'm also in the camp of not putting all my chips at risk over a coinflip early in the tourney. I think there is plenty of time to build your stack through playing well or hitting the occasional flop.

To me if you are raising all-in with a mid-pair and you put the villian on overs, you may have goofed and he has an overpair. So at *best* your a coin-flip, and worst youre totally dominated if called.

I always try to mix up my play, but generally speaking play opposite of my opponent. If the opponent is loose, I tighten up. If the opponent is tight, I start stabbing at pots, buying blinds, etc. Not to say I won't stab at pots against a loose player - if I have a tight table image, then I'll hope they give me credit for a big hand and take stab if I think they missed a flop.

I also agree that Miami's post was excellent!

[flash]

To me if you are raising all-in with a mid-pair and you put the villian on overs, you may have goofed and he has an overpair. So at *best* your a coin-flip, and worst youre totally dominated if called.

Yes, that is generally my philosophy as well, but is their any point when you would rather risk it than continue grinding your mid stack?

[fractal]

Yes, that is generally my philosophy as well, but is their any point when you would rather risk it than continue grinding your mid stack?

I probably would only do that if I was down to 10x BB. I'd have a hard time gambling away an average size stack because I'd feel I could have played well and gradually increased it.

If I'm in a situation where I think someone will not want to gamble (bubble situations, tight player with a good read) then I may do it, but in most those instances I'm doing it with the hope they will fold and I can buy some chips, not flip a coin for my tourney life.

I don't have a problem flipping a coin when its not my tourney life at stake. If there was a short stack I had pretty well covered, I may all-in just to put the pressure on him. If he calls and I lose a coin flip, I'm not out and I can live to flip a coin another day .

[bigdil511]

To me if you are raising all-in with a mid-pair and you put the villian on overs, you may have goofed and he has an overpair. So at *best* your a coin-flip, and worst youre totally dominated if called.

Yes, that is generally my philosophy as well, but is their any point when you would rather risk it than continue grinding your mid stack?

Time to take your coinflips is deep in a MTT, already in the money, trying to accumulate chips for a FT. I just won't risk my tourny life early on with 99 when I am at best a 55% favorite. Late in the MTT you have to take these chances or blinds will eat you up, early on it just isn't necessarry. I found myself deep in the majority of tourny's I play and my money is never all in until late game or I have a huge hand.

[easy_as_pie]

Miami, ill respond here instead of the puzzle thread ok?

No, of course I am not offended. Why would I be? I just did not reply to this thread because I have 0 time for poker these days and much less time for TP so I simply forgot about it. I agree with your post but this is not what I was talking about.
OK it is partially, but this was kind of implied. I assumed that there was no need to talk about some of the standard aspects of LAG play, the ones you mentioned, because we all know these.
I wanted to talking about more of a hybrid lag/gambling style. I have been watching/following players like Ari, that burst out onto the MTT scence in 2006. This guy does similiar things and has had major sucess on all sites playing every single MTT with a decent prize pool.

How good do we think our edge is? Is it better then the 4% we get from winning AKvs99? How much better of a player are you compared to the rest of the field? How often do you find yourself with M lower then 10 in the third hour of the tourny and the big stack keep owning everybody at the table? Before you know it you are forced to make a move or you actually have a hand, but it doesnt hold up and you have spent the last couple of hours only to bubble or make a measly $20-100 from getting ITM.
I am willing to take that edge if I know that they have AK, get chips and run over the field before its either too late or I have an avg. stack and have to play one-move poker. This HH was a bit extreme (just wanted to post a HH) agreed, but I would do it with blinds 50-100 without a second thought, especially if this was a re-raised pot and there was dead more dead money in the pot. To the people that say, "How do you know he has AK?". I just do. I even called it out in that hand. In that particular spot he has AK 95% of the time and like once in a million years some weirdly played AA.


I don't do this that early but I do call if I know they have AK. I will post another HH when I play poker, hopefully this weekend, when its a raised or re raised pot, someone is isolating with AK (also very obvious often) and I'll call with lower pockets.

BigD - whats your FT rate?
Fractal - yes there is. Its called an inflection point.

[randy72560]

I have to chime in here. First, I agree with you.

I think the major shift was about 1 1/2 ago and it increased after the WSOP. Aggressive play gets good TV time and there was plenty of it last year. Raymer was impressive IMO.

That said there is ton of dead money early in tournaments especially early in MTT's. Even more now than ever. Getting those unwanted pots early is helpful and usually you'll run across a nice fish that will double you up in the first 20 minutes.

Anyway, I think there are a few things going on that has changed the scene of MTT's.