Tight Poker

[aj]

Generally (because I know the texture of the table, position and lots of other factors have an effect), what guidelines do you you in flat calling a preflop raise in $1/2 and $2/4 NL?

Let's say the standard opening raise in $1/2 is $7 and in $2/4 it's $14 (this is pretty common on FT).

Seems like I'm seeing a lot of calls of this standard raise with a wide variety of hands lately. I don't mean the 4th caller (who obviously has great odds at that point). I mean the 1st caller. As an example, let's use Q6s (could be any other hand like this).

Seems like a lot of players call with this type of hand in the hope of hitting a hidden monster (two pair, trips) or a big (flush) draw. Is the theory that one successful hand where they win a large pot makes up for all the times the flop completely misses them? Or are do they feel that any kind of scary board allows them to bluff a monster and steal a pot from a big pair?

Usually, these players are well above 40% VP$IP so it is difficult to have any idea what to put them on post flop.

Thoughts?

[scottie_g]

Hm.. I usually don't like to cold call preflop raises. Sometimes I will do it on the button though, especially if I think I can outplay the raiser after the flop.

Against super aggro opponents (I'm usually that guy), sometimes just calling with an OK hand can be good. If you hit the flop, chances are you are ahead of his betting range, and you can call and re-revaluate the turn, or raise him on the flop.

[easy_as_pie]

I have noted the same tendency across all sites and especially across 100NL games and above. I feel like people hear about the LAG style and the idea of stacking somebody and decide to play all kinds of hands in hopes of flopping a monster and getting paid off, as you said yourself. They are loosing money for several reasons, trust me.

These players play, cold call raises and 3 bets preflop, with questionable holdings OOP constantly which is a really bad spot to be in. You are defintely loosing money here, especially vs agressive players. Moreover, they are cold calling with hands like Q6 or 103 (somebody did that today in full ring out of the SB). I guarantee you they are loosing money but they can't help but call and leak their whole stack in hopes of flopping a boat, trips or flush, because these are really the only hands that you be comfortable with and often times you are still dominated by higher flushes or better boats. Hands like q6 103 etc. are just way too weak and should be folded to any raise in any position unless you are on a re steal and are re raising to take it down on the button.
In any case, the other reason why they are loosing money is becasue they simply won't get paid off every time they flop a monster. You need to do it vs the right kind of player. Not everybody will go broke with AA on 10310 board.
Most importantly, the idea behind these hands is to flop a monster and stack somebody or get away quick. This is where they fail the most. They flop their TPWK or a flush draw and continue calling or even re raising the PFR when he has them beat and or they are drawing dead. People tell themselves: " i will play J10, 78 etc. because i can outplay him after the flop and stack him/her" but most of the time its just their way of rationalizing their call beause they can't get away if they happen to get a piece.
Having said all that, most of these players are loosing money for sure and thats why we love them long time

[cavman]

calling preflop raises is a big leak of many players, and one of the main reasons good players can make boatloads of money off of fish.

I prefer to raise or fold PF to a raise, but there are a few hands (not too many) I'll call PF with in position. My PF call range OOP is extremely small.

most people that call a ton of preflop raises with all sorts of crap aren't really thinking about odds or anything. They probably just think any 2 cards can win and want to gamble/see flops/have fun.

[carrera]

Are you including lowish pockets pairs in these "trash" hands?

[scottie_g]

Are you including lowish pockets pairs in these "trash" hands?

No, low pokect pairs are golden. The great thing about PP's is that if you hit a set, you play it, and if you don't you fold the hand. Ie, its easy to get away from if you miss. What EAP is saying is that if you are going to play a hand like 7-8, or JT or something, make sure that you either get paid or get out of the hand. In other words, these hands are only good if you hit something solid, like a high straight, or maybe 2 pair. Hitting a pair isn't something you are looking for.

Also, the more you get yourself into TPMK or MPTP type situations, the more tough decisions you need to make.

[carrera]

ok, I agree then.

[robe2584]

Wow this is great. During my session tonight I had tons of tough decisions with cold calls pre-flop and I was thinking about starting a thread too, so great topic here.

Personally I very rarely cold call, maybe AQ occasionally, and then I will also call with any PP if original raiser has any type of stack. Most of the time w/ AA-TT and AQ/AK I'm reraising. Pre-flop I very rarely limp in favor of raising. Do you guys have a wider range with cold calling. I'm a big fan of the gap theory, I'm dumping AJ most of the time, and either reraising or folding AQ depending on reads. Standard TAGish?

If I get cold called after raising pre flop I'm c-betting 90 percent of the time on the flop and evaluting things from there. LAG's are tough to deal with for me and often if I have a decent player that is frustrating me I'll just leave.

[aj]

If I get cold called after raising pre flop I'm c-betting 90 percent of the time on the flop and evaluting things from there. LAG's are tough to deal with for me and often if I have a decent player that is frustrating me I'll just leave.

You raise a good point here. I also c-bet after my preflop raises a very high percentage of the time. I worry once I lay my hand down to a reraise that the whole table will now see every future c-bet as vunerable. Obviously, the solution to that is to actually have a hand. However, when a decent player calls your PFR and then reraises your c-bet, and your sitting there with AKs to a board of J 10 2 with one or none of your suit, it's probably time to run away. When this happens more than once in a relatively short period of time, I too, tend to leave and look for greener pastures.