AT q

[ugignadl]

PokerStars Game #7876283402: Tournament #40256292, $6.00+$0.50 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/01/11 - 03:01:43 (ET)
Table '40256292 1' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: Ugignadl (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: WILLLORD (1950 in chips)
Seat 3: frostbrn (1470 in chips)
Seat 4: myhon3y (1160 in chips)
Seat 5: Joethiele (1440 in chips)
Seat 6: irish2219 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: GOBnRUN (1480 in chips)
Seat 8: rockerschalk (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: wangchung11 (1500 in chips)
myhon3y: posts small blind 10
Joethiele: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Ugignadl [:Ac: ]
irish2219: folds
GOBnRUN: folds
rockerschalk: folds
wangchung11: folds
Ugignadl: raises 40 to 60
WILLLORD: raises 40 to 100
frostbrn: folds
myhon3y: calls 90
Joethiele: folds
Ugignadl: calls 40
*** FLOP *** [:Th: ]
myhon3y: checks
Ugignadl: bets 160
WILLLORD: calls 160
myhon3y: calls 160
*** TURN *** [Th 3s 9c] [:Ah:]
myhon3y: checks
Ugignadl: bets 520
WILLLORD: folds
myhon3y: calls 520
*** RIVER *** [Th 3s 9c Ah] [:Jh:]
myhon3y: bets 380 and is all-in
Ugignadl: calls 380

Any objections?

[jacedk]

Any objections?

Yeah, a few, actually.

I think a MP raise with ATo in the first level of a sng is asking for trouble. Even if it is late MP and you open the betting, the blinds are still way too small to be worth stealing, and you risk getting called with all sorts of hands by players you have no read on.

When you get reraised, and SB flatcalls, I'd recommend folding right there. You are out of position to the reraiser, and you risk getting sandwiched in between two unknown players with a highly marginal hand. How would you play it, if an Ace flops? But I can see how the odds make it tempting to see a flop.

Once you flop top pair, the ½ pot bet is ok, assuming you are willing to fold to a reraise or CR. Once both villains call, what do you put them on?

On the turn, either bet less or push. When your leave yourself with 380 chips, there is no river card that can make you fold, is there? So why not get all you money in, and either charge the villans max price for drawing or win yourself a nice 800 chip pot right there?

The is almost the worst card possible on the river. I'd expect villain to have AJo, KQ, or some weird flush draw like or something.

I think this hand is a good example of how a lot of small mistakes can add up and cost you a lot. None of the decisions you make are horrible (except maybe the PFR), but they add up to a hand where you have very little info and that's very hard to get away from.

[darinvg]

The preflop raise might be a little thin but you have pretty good position so I can't argue with it. We have to call the min reraise.
I like the flop prob bet. On the turn we have a real nice hand but it is draw heavy so I like the bet. We're committed on the river and have to call.

[mewsiclovr]

I normally toss ATo this early. Postflop looks ok to me.

[ugignadl]

AT is the lowest of the range that I will play.

Jace:

Not sure how you can advocate folding to the pfrr. That is real weak IMO. I am getting odds to at least flop a T. No way am I going to just put these guys on TT-AA.

When they call the flop bet, I am putting one on a draw and the other on some T or PP. On the turn I figure to have the best hand, and bet. I did not go all-in because I want to be called by both of them. Of course I'm not folding.

On the river I do not figure to have the best hand anymore. However, I am not folding to the bet.

As a final comment, I'm not sure raising PF in position with AT is really that bad at all. It's the lowest, but it has earnt me chips. The idea is not to steal the blinds, of course, it is to have people play a reasonable pot with junk hands, very common in the lower buyin SnGs in the early levels, while you have a superior hand.

Thanks for the comments anyway. (And for any further comments.) In this hand, villain flipped for teh nutxxor.

[LadyWrestler]

It seems like you did fine, to me.


Geez!

It never ceases to amaze me how many of these people will play, and call any raises or reraises pre-flop, with any two suited cards! Then they will do the same with any kind of back door draw and/or gut shot at the flop.

I will never forget this one from 2005 on Pacific...
Me: "nh"
Me: "but how could you make that call preflop with 72s???"
Donkey: "I HAD TOO IT WAS SNOOTED"

After that, I stopped asking.

[bigdil511]

The preflop raise might be a little thin but you have pretty good position so I can't argue with it. We have to call the min reraise.
I like the flop prob bet. On the turn we have a real nice hand but it is draw heavy so I like the bet. We're committed on the river and have to call.

I agree, generally I will fold but might mix it up. I think you played the hand perfect, nh.

[jacedk]

Not sure how you can advocate folding to the pfrr. That is real weak IMO. I am getting odds to at least flop a T. No way am I going to just put these guys on TT-AA.

I guess you're right about this. It's easy enough to look at a complete HH and advocate a different play, but to be honest, I don't think I'd ever fold here either, when sitting at the table.

When they call the flop bet, I am putting one on a draw and the other on some T or PP. On the turn I figure to have the best hand, and bet. I did not go all-in because I want to be called by both of them. Of course I'm not folding.

I agree that you almost surely have the best hand at this point, and you bet enough for them to not have proper odds to draw, so it's ok. Again, hindsight probably clouds my judgment.

On the river I do not figure to have the best hand anymore. However, I am not folding to the bet.

No argument here.

As a final comment, I'm not sure raising PF in position with AT is really that bad at all. It's the lowest, but it has earnt me chips. The idea is not to steal the blinds, of course, it is to have people play a reasonable pot with junk hands, very common in the lower buyin SnGs in the early levels, while you have a superior hand.

I guess this is mostly a question of playing style and experience. When I was tutored by Heids, he advocated folding ATo in similar situations, so this is the line I usually take. I'd have no problem playing ATs, but I don't like ATo. But then again, I'm by no means a particularly solid sng player. I often make mistakes or play overaggressively, which is probably why I tend to get into trouble playing ATo early.

Thanks for the comments anyway. (And for any further comments.) In this hand, villain flipped for teh nutxxor.

Anytime. And please don't pay too much attention to my weak-tight ravings.

As for villains hand....shees. Guess his pattern mapper was a good one.

[ihatejacks]

I'd fold that pre-flop for sure. It might look pretty but AT is really weak, especially offsuit. You got a lucky turn there for sure, but a cold call from him kinda scares me even with top 2. The river completed whatever draws were out there so even though it's only 380 I might lay that down unless he was a really terrible player.

[mousey]

River == Fold, it is obvious he hit a flush or broadway...

Timid players never bet into an aggressive player on the last card unless they hit near nuts. Even if he isn't timid and is a calling station he would still rather see a check.

He instantly shoves all in for a small amount compared to his turn call which means he needs another card, if he didn't he would have pushed all in on the turn ( AK,AQ ). So we KNOW that the J helped. Any hand I can think of that a J helps has you beat.

I would fold the river.

I don't think preflop is as bad as most people are sounding. It was only 40 more to call on a 3 way pot ( good odds ), but any J, Q, K hits board I fold. Because you flopped the T and not the A, you are better off because you reverse dominated any AK, AQ. and the broadway drawers have 1 less out, QK, and JK, JQ.

I like to raise ATs, and ATo more in later positions... It is too strong of a hand to fold off if it gets to you. Too many people play low pockets to give them a free pot. This is a hand where you can apply preasure on your opponents. If the only cards you play are AQ+ you are going to have a difficult time accumulating small -> medium chips.

However, I am only playing this hand on my terms and not limping with a field or calling a raise.

For one, you usually shake weaker players from Ax and often win against them. Second too many people call with QK and JK to NOT make this play expensive for them. Another thing: the people who DO play can often times get a stronger read on. You need info. AT is just too good to let a JT on the button take the hand.

If they had AJ, AQ or AK they will sometimes re-raise or raise before you and you can tell when you are trouble and can back off.

[LadyWrestler]

It is obvious from all the answers that ATo is a marginal hand here. Personally, before Frist's dirty work, I would have folded it in this spot. Now, I would play it about the same as Ugi did. And, as he said it is at about the bottom of my range here. I would not argue with anyone who said they would fold it. I guess that makes it: some good players would fold it, some would play it, and some would play it some of the time. I think we all agree ATo is a close one in this spot, which is good info to know! I know it reinforced me!

Great thread and great stuff!

[mousey]

It is obvious from all the answers that ATo is a marginal hand here. Personally, before Frist's dirty work, I would have folded it in this spot. Now, I would play it about the same as Ugi did. And, as he said it is at about the bottom of my range here. I would not argue with anyone who said they would fold it. I guess that makes it: some good players would fold it, some would play it, and some would play it some of the time. I think we all agree ATo is a close one in this spot, which is good info to know! I know it reinforced me!

Great thread and great stuff!

Would you play JK and JQ?, 55 ? 66? J9s?

AT has a higher +ev rating than all of these hands... Do not pretend that AT, especially when YOU have the cadence move is a weak starting hand; it isn't its in the top 30 starting hands.

ATo is a calling hand in MP for an aggressive player according to starting hand suggestion charts written by sklansky and ed miller:

http://www.pokereagles.com/poker-strate ... g-hand.php

Note: ATs is a hands down playing hand ATo does have situations you should avoid playing with but I do not see this being one of em...

[LadyWrestler]

It is obvious from all the answers that ATo is a marginal hand here. Personally, before Frist's dirty work, I would have folded it in this spot. Now, I would play it about the same as Ugi did. And, as he said it is at about the bottom of my range here. I would not argue with anyone who said they would fold it. I guess that makes it: some good players would fold it, some would play it, and some would play it some of the time. I think we all agree ATo is a close one in this spot, which is good info to know! I know it reinforced me!

Great thread and great stuff!

Would you play JK and JQ?, 55 ? 66? J9s?

AT has a higher +ev rating than all of these hands... Do not pretend that AT, especially when YOU have the cadence move is a weak starting hand; it isn't its in the top 30 starting hands.

ATo is a calling hand in MP for an aggressive player according to starting hand suggestion charts written by sklansky and ed miller:

http://www.pokereagles.com/poker-strate ... g-hand.php

Note: ATs is a hands down playing hand ATo does have situations you should avoid playing with but I do not see this being one of em...

You asked: "Would you play JK and JQ?, 55 ? 66? J9s?"

Assuming the conditions of the OP, preflop, I would say, as a general rule:
JKo: No.
JQo: No.
55: Yes.
66: Yes.
J9s: No.
(ATo: Yes.)
(ATs: Yes.)

[jacedk]

ATo is a calling hand in MP for an aggressive player according to starting hand suggestion charts written by sklansky and ed miller:

http://www.pokereagles.com/poker-strate ... g-hand.php

Note: ATs is a hands down playing hand ATo does have situations you should avoid playing with but I do not see this being one of em...

Mousey, the the Sklansky/Miller starting hand you refer to is for a full table limit ring game. There's a world of difference between that and a NL sng.

As the discussion shows, whether or not ATo should be played in this position depends largely on individual playing styles. I think it is a hand that takes a lot of skill and practice to play successfully post flop - especially at the early levels where people will play anything. Unless you hit the flop really hard, most of the time your best hand will be top pair without a decent draw. If you hit the Ten, there is a good chance overcards will fall, and if you hit the Ace you might have kicker problems.

I know you know this, I'm just listing the reasons I don't like to play ATo in this situation. I will play mostly the same hands as LW, because with the medium PPs and ATs, your decisions postflop are much easier. Either you hit your set or draw, or you ditch the hand. (Roughly speaking).

[mousey]

Mousey, the the Sklansky/Miller starting hand you refer to is for a full table limit ring game. There's a world of difference between that and a NL sng.

A full table is still a full table regardless of the betting structure. They suggest playing it due its mathematical likeliness of winning and how often those hands are flipped on showdown... My point is that everyone instantly claimed how borderline playing those cards even were and I am challenging this thought with a few back up references of similar situations. I find the 'it depends' argument as a weak reply to what is a general strategy as you are arguing tactics while I refer to strategy.