Tight Poker

[LadyWrestler]

5CD: I understand that limping from the SB is sometimes +EV. But, in an unraised pot, it is not +EV to try a limp from the dealer position with certain holdings? Never? What if the blinds are both tight?

[sfustsh]

It depends on your opponents. If I'm playing tight and my blinds are weak I will raise most hands that include an A and draw 4. Note, however, shorts are still not acceptable raising hands from the button.

Usually however, I don't try to play too far from my normal strategy. If the blinds are call stations, you'd better have at least two kings or two queens with an aces kicker (still draw three to queens, the A is just to be a little more sure you have the best hand).

If they are average players, jacks or better will usually do.

Limping is generally out of the question. You should either raise or fold. The only hand I can think of that you might want to limp with is a 4-straight-flush. Even then, the small blind would need to complete for you to get the right odds. You would also likely not get paid off unless someone thought you were bluffing. Another draw you might want to consider is an AK high flush or an KQJT straight. Pairing any of those cards could give you a winning hand as well. I lean towards fold, though.

If your opponents draw three and don't improve, they'll check to you and you can often steal the pot from them (if they are tight players). If they are loose players, you'd better have had the best hand before the draw.

EDIT: Why do we tighten up against looser players? We need to be sure we'll get paid when we both improve. Kings up is better than sevens up, and if you both make two pair you have to win that pot. Same is true with trips, but to a greater degree. Loose players generally don't realize that three fours is just as bad as three queens when you need to beat three kings. Why play loose against tight players? Because they are more prone to fold if they don't help on the draw.

EDIT2: Be more prone to checking down the hand if you make two aces against tight players. Two aces can not afford to be raised and will be the best hand if no one helped. The reason to check is to avoid a checkraise. Tight players will checkraise a predraw raiser often. It is okay to call a small bet, though, if you draw 4 against attentive opponents. They know you don't help that often and can steal the pot if you don't. Usually, though, fold.

[caffiend]

5CD: I understand that limping from the SB is sometimes +EV. But, in an unraised pot, it is not +EV to try a limp from the dealer position with certain holdings? Never? What if the blinds are both tight?

Just about never, because you're better off taking the blinds down before the draw. Generally I'd suggest TT or better to open from the button.

That being said, you can find exceptions to any rule. If the blinds are unusually tight or loose it may make sense. If Uber Rock is in the blinds and you have a complete hand you may want to risk giving him the free draw in hopes of winning an extra bet later. If Captain Raisaholic is to your left, you probably want to sandbag all kinds of shit.

In between those extremes there are a wide range of possibilities, depending on your opponents' tendancies and observational power. A good player is going to put you on a monster when you limp, so you should only do it if you're occasionally willing to snow. (That means vitrually never online, you don't play against the same people long enough to need that much deception.) Bad players will usually give you a straight or flush draw if you draw one, but normally you're exploiting a specific tendancy.

For example, occasionally you see someone who's in love with the blocking bet. They won't call a raise in the blind without the goods, but they will bet whenever they improve. That's good snapping off material right there.

There's a counterpoint to your question which is also interesting though. If you always open for a raise (which is a good idea) then when should you stand pat? It can work in your favor to not draw to hands like two small pair, in hopes of getting the free showdown when the big blind checks to the pat hand.

[sfustsh]

Good points caffiend. I want to mention that even good players (I consider myself better than the average 5CD player and I do it) will put you on a come hand if you draw 1.

However, from my perspective, what's the difference? I won't call you unless I've seen you bluff before and I won't call your bluff unless I have two strong pairs (just to cover my bases).

Your other question, about when the stand pat, is a topic for an entirely different thread, since it is so vast a concept. Basically, here's some rules for standing pat:

Do you want to be raised if you draw and don't help?
Are the odds of helping very good?
Will you get better hands to lay down if you stand pat?
What can your opponents draw to based on the cards they take?

If the first two are 'No' and the third is 'Yes' then you can and should stand pat. Two small pair is a perfect situation. If your opponent draws three, you could stand pat. Then, you won't have to worry about getting raised by trips or two pairs (likely better than yours). Also, you might get two pairs or trips to lay down if you bet. Finally, if you bet your opponent may call with one pair trying to catch a bluff. You win there too. So there are lots of ways to win and it seems more profitable than drawing 1 to a full (12 to 1 against) and also having him make his come hand (4 to 1 against). Not only that, but if your opponent bets into you, you know exactly what he has: a full house. Doesn't matter that the odds are 76.2 to 1 to improve to a full house in three cards, because what else could he bet into a pat hand (that any moron EXPECTS you to bet or call with). Fold and pretend like you were bluffing.

[LadyWrestler]

Oh wow!

Did I say I have a lot to learn about 5cd? I have a lot to learn!

Thank you, sirs!